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AA Strider

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ROrankSigero
7 months ago
(edited 7 months ago)

So was thinking that thres no mobile AA that has long rage capabilities,basicly all mobile AA is subpar(hp/cost/dmg/range) compared to static AA.
And the easiest answer was a strider that boasts long rage AA capabilities.

What i envisioned is something with 2 chainsaws on the shoulders ,has mouth launched screamers,shoots gremlin lazors from the eyes,farts cobra flak and has razor pew pew from the fingers.

On a more serious note,a 4-5K Metal strider that has 2 razors and 4 tarantula missiles with longer range,seems resonable.

I think we are missing a high cost mobile AA to protect our ground armies.Since normal mobile AA dose not have sufficent range to let them sit farther back from main army making them fairly vulnarable in bigger more chaotic battles.
Consider this a discussion thread for a new AA unit.
+6 / -2

FIrankAdminAlcur
7 months ago
I also find the general idea of an AA strider attractive, but I'm not advocating any particular unit details at this time.
+0 / -0


EErankAdminAnarchid
7 months ago
AA is not supposed to be invulnerable, i think.
+1 / -0


AUrank4hundred
7 months ago
Ive suggested an AA strider several times, it falls on def ears
+1 / -0

LVrankSenaven
7 months ago
Scremer have already insane range and aoe alredy. Plus costs like only one licho. More then enought.
Funnel is already aa strider because of shields and drones.

+3 / -1


AUrankSnuggleBass
7 months ago
This unit would entirely kill two factories worth of units.

One of these on patrol, and TB support? Unless you're planning on assaulting with mobile AA units, you aren't getting to me.

The way ZK AA is balanced now is that if you are static, you die to artillery or tac nuke silo. A mobile screamer has neither of these weaknesses, and would be incredibly difficult to get rid of.

There's also the issue that if its range is long enough, you'll be able to creep forward into range of their stuff, snipe it, and move back, without really taking any risks since opponents won't be able to kill a strider class before it gets back to the defensive line.

Striders are supposed to be much wow, but AA is not very shibe. Even the ultimatum, which is a counter unit, does so in insane style.

Finally, in the late game, maps get so porced up with long range AA that it's already a struggle to make use of even the high weight air. The problem is the opposite of what this unit would solve.

This suggestion feels like you're hard-cracking balance by assembling every combination of key words, but balance needs more direction than that.
+9 / -0


CHrankAdminDeinFreund
7 months ago
(edited 7 months ago)

I dislike how static aa is superior to their mobile counterpart in almost every case. Even with advanced radar, mobile aa is often too slow to react in time. This and the inability to raid often causes static and boring battles. I'm unsure whether your proposed "aa strider" can help with that. Longer range discourages movement and higher weight usually means less speed and cautious micro.

Crasher, Copperhead and archangel already make sturdy, fast and effective aa. Yet it's simply cheaper to cover the whole front in chainsaws. A possibility for rewarding the proper use of mobile aa would be giving them huge alpha projectiles, meaning that if you manage to catch the fliers in your small range, they'd be gone for good. At the same time this would promote the use of flex aa vs melee fliers (banshee) where the long reload would render aa ineffective.

I'd also like to see a slight range nerf to static aa because their current range makes then effectively more mobile than mobile aa.

Regarding artillery, chainsaw outranges merl yet isn't worth a tacnuke. Screamer is very situational as 2.5 chainsaws are generally a safer bet. And then there's razor.
+4 / -0


ROrankSigero
7 months ago
The problem that i wish to solve is that mobile AA is simply not worth the investment except the early stages of the game,when u cant afford to build AA at all your expansions and u need some cover for your cons.
When the expand part of the game is over and u reach midgame,mobile AA simply becomes useless because static AA is just too powerfull compared to it.

Archangel is really good. but are u really gonna build 2 archangels when u can have 1 chainsaw?
Tarantula is 400m.are u gonna build 2 tarantulas or a chainsaw?
Crasher is the best mobile AA(imho).great alpha ,superior speed and its cost aint that high either.but are u gonna build 4 crashers or a chainsaw?
Gremlin is okay.but are u gonna build 2 gremlins that are 300M or a 280M razor(which is basicly unkilable)?
Flail is awsome, 3 flails or a chainsaw?

The dilema is that static AA will allmost allways make cost,when mobile AA wont.Sure ur argument might be arty but when is arty ever scary for your AA? when you have nothing to protect your aa with ,at that point arty is a means to an end.

What SnugleBass said is a pretty accurate interpretaion of what would happend with such a strider but i think that can be ballanced as everything else.

We need a form of mobile AA that can survive at the frontlines(cause it has to be there cause of small range),one wyvern can kill bunched up AA easy and get away just dandy,opening up your armies to be bombed to submission.


+1 / -0




AUrankAdminGoogleFrog
7 months ago
quote:
The problem that i wish to solve is that mobile AA is simply not worth the investment except the early stages of the game,when u cant afford to build AA at all your expansions and u need some cover for your cons.
An AA strider is quite a poor solution to that problem (if it exists). You're basically saying that our diverse range of AA units are unbuildable and proposing to throw them out and add a single AA unit to be the sole piece of mobile AA.

I'm fairly against this for the points that AUrankSnuggleBass has written. Mainly, that it's just about impossible to kill a Strider while it is not actively pushing or loitering right on the front line. I also shy from changing things here because air seems both very usable and not dominant.

I don't even think there is a general problem with current mobile AA. Start with that approach. It is trivially more likely that there is a problem with mobile AA than there is a problem with mobile AA and that AA strider is the solution.
+2 / -0

LVrankSenaven
7 months ago
quote:
The dilema is that static AA will allmost allways make cost,when mobile AA wont.


I have seen many battles where mobile aa makes its cost. Starting with killing krow (especially rushed krow) and ending killing enemy ravens and lichos. I have seen how effctive can be crasher masses because they are speed. I have seen how one gremlin pwned two when its moving was enabled and also vandal as well.
Almost all air units have one big limit - you must fly close to use air attack (except for brawlers). I can also demand long range missile launcher air in such manner.
+0 / -0

GBrank[Fx]Drone
7 months ago
Mobile AA is not shit at all, most labs have strong mobile AA.

An AA strider would make nubs rage probably, do you really think people bother to read the unit text?
+0 / -0


AUrankSnuggleBass
7 months ago
Regarding mobile vs. static AA, I've previously pushed the notion that static is superior, but have changed my view.

Mobile AA is close to unanswerable. While it's true that it's less efficient pound for pound, if you don't derp, you will keep your investment for the whole game. With static AA, if you get pushed off by land units, your AA is forfeit. If opponents build tac nukes, your chainsaws and screamers are forfeit. If opponents build artillery, everything but screamer and razor is forfeit. Mobile AA is more difficult to kill than razors even. Sure I don't feel good building MAA, because doing so signifies that my plan has been disrupted, but when I do I don't feel like these resources are wasted.

4x crasher or chainsaw? = 4x crasher every time.
3x flail or chainsaw? = 3x flail every time.

Other MAA is more conditional, but I'd still feel uncomfortable making pure SAA without MAA. Statics give all the power to your opponent to answer them, whereas mobiles give you the power to keep them safe. I don't want my opponents making decisions about which units I get to keep.
+1 / -0

GBrank[Fx]Drone
7 months ago
(edited 7 months ago)

Gremlin in mass with their cloaks secret very OP. Vandal groups slaughter bombers and kite very fast. Tarantula is strong, long range and all-terrain kiting ability. Ship AA is OP. Amphib AA strong, especially if enemy has no sonar vision. Archangel OP and dodges bombs well, unless the bomb behavior changed.

Static AA is trash, it can always be easily taken out with bombers, tactical missiles, skuttles, ultimatums -etc.

I don't see how this is even a debate.
+0 / -0


AUrankAquanim
7 months ago
(edited 7 months ago)

My preferred mobile AA is Swift, followed closely by Trident. (Hawk is decent in some specific situations). I particularly prefer to build those units over missile-based mobile surface-to-air (Angler, Vandal, Tarantula, Crasher) with the exception of Flail because the stats on that unit are insane. Crasher is OK I guess. The other three I generally find to be underwhelming for cost, although happily their factories do have reasonable flex-AA against gunships.
[Spoiler]

I think a lot of people don't understand how to use Gremlin. Archangel is generally good, if a bit high-weight. Copperhead becomes exceptionally good against high densities of air, I've even switched to Tankfac explicitly to build it. Shredder gets the job done.

As for static AA, it's rare for me to make anything more than Defenders and Razors. Razors are a pain in the ass to dislodge. I make Chainsaws rarely and Screamer once in a blue moon, but only once I have plenty of mobile AA already and my opponent is still going into air; the long-range static AA is a good deterrent against sustained presence but won't actually stop a determined assault on its own. I won't say that I've never made Hacksaw or Cobra but they are very situational.

I don't like the idea of an AA strider.
+1 / -0

AUrankhedgehogs
7 months ago
I find the idea of AA strider absurd.
2Razors, and a lot of Tarantulas.
Meaning: High HP, Lots of damage, Moves. It's not good at all, at that rate, I say it can kill even Krow's in a few seconds. Sure, Mobile AA isn't price efficient, but like Snugglebass said, you keep them safe, it's gonna be alright.

Why no AA strider:
Tarantula:2.25 of Chainsaw. 400 Metal
Chainsaw is 900Metal.
Chainsaw reload: 1Sec
Tarntula: 1.9
Damage,~220
Range, 1000,1500 respectively.
With 2 Tarantulas, you fire every 0.9 Sec if sustained, 1.9 at burst.
Meaning: 440 Damage in 2Seconds. For 2 Tarntulas, outclassing the Chainsaw.
However, if 4, 880 in b
1104 DAMAGE PER SECOND.
Krow:16000 HP.
Kills Krow in 16Sec. Ow.
+1 / -0

RUrankaspc
7 months ago
(edited 7 months ago)

quote:
ROrankSigero
We need a form of mobile AA that can survive at the frontlines(cause it has to be there cause of small range),one wyvern can kill bunched up AA easy and get away just dandy,opening up your armies to be bombed to submission.


How about to test in Strider hub double-HP and double-cost variations of current mobile AA for beginning?
Then - say, with 1.5 damage and/or with 0.7-0.8 speed (in addition to doubled HP and cost)...

Slow, step by step testing and probably official implementation... without radical changes per single update, which is done by child-minded, like was with DDM (4 kinds of nerfs per update - facepalm...).
+0 / -2


AUrankSnuggleBass
7 months ago
I was against the DDM changes, but there was nothing child-minded about them.

It is child-minded to think that buttering someone up with insults is conducive to them taking you seriously.
+1 / -0

AUrankhedgehogs
7 months ago
(edited 7 months ago)

Why not? It is proven to catch their attention. Taking you seriously, probably no.

What's the point of AA strider is that is expensive, and unable to kill off groundunits?
4-5k metal is terrible as person will just make spider fac and make 1 flea, total 620 and then the AA strider will die with ridiculous cost ratio after a long flea kill time..
Which one:
2Tarantulas or 1Chainsaw.

Easy: Tarantula.
Tarantula can move, deal damage and not get one hit in the face with Wyvern.
2Tarntula=440 Damage, chainsaw only 240.
Thus, Tarantula. I presume it's the cost of AA that makes this ridiculous, as Swift,Phoenix and Raven all cost >400. A Flail costs an amazing 375, which costs more than any of those, and yet will die to maybe just 1 Raven if it doesn't have radar. So it makes no sense as why every AA withe exception of Razors cost more and is unable to make no-fly zones
+0 / -0

PLrankOrfelius
7 months ago
(edited 7 months ago)

I dislike the idea of dedicated AA in general and an AA strider would be basically a super hacksaw on wheels which is not very interesting.
However if it had some interesting sidearm or dgun power, then it could make a nice addition. Like I dunno, a healing aura? Something supporty.


Oh geez GBrank[Fx]Drone. Have you ever seen Gremlins making their cost against flying units? I sure didn't. Of course that they will kill stuff en-masse if you have more metal invested in them than the enemy invested into air. However they also have puny range, speed and alpha. Enemy air can just avoid them for the most part and if they created space for ground thanks to the AA spamming then its their own damn fault that they keep suiciding more swifts and ravens over the enemy.
Gremlin is cool though because it can double as a scout and a spotter for arty. Unlike other mobile AAs it is actually useful outside of its main role.

- Ship-AA is good only if you have a lot of it (again the argument of stupid suicides and spamming AA)
- Archangel is super costly, low alpha and is just a good deterant.
- I sort of agree with Vandals and Tarantulas. But the problem that Vandals have is that they are way too light and again need to be spammed by dozens to have any effect. Vandals wreck any air early game because of how cheap and effective they are.

Now static AA is not good either sure. But seriously? Going for even a Chainsaw with an Ultimatum or a Skuttle? Jokes on you dude.
First off Chainsaws are not built in the frontlines (unless of course someone does that but thats stupid) so if you want to kill it, you will have to dive deep into the enemy territory and possibly feeding a large amount of metal while doing so to just kill one AA emplacement in which case it did it job well.

GBrank[Fx]Drone I think you are just not understanding how air is played nowdays. It is not a Raven lololo spam anymore.
It plays like a support factory that suplements ground forces with super tanky Wyverns for surgical strikes (which fear no amount of Gremlins or Vandals), disarming Thunderbirds and scouting Vultures.
+1 / -0

AUrankhedgehogs
7 months ago
Going to kill of a Chainsaw with 550 metal compared to 900. Profit made.
I do agree on everything else except AA strider in general.
+0 / -0
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