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Selection Rank/Hierarchy Feedback

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AUrankAdminGoogleFrog
24 days ago
I added selection hierarchy almost seven weeks ago now. Here is a relevant thread: http://zero-k.info/Forum/Thread/23954.

I tried it out because a few people suggested it and that the supcom community has it without evidence of complaints. It was annoying at first but I became used to it. Now I want to know what others thing. Is it great? Did you disable it as soon as you knew how? Do the defaults need tweaking? Did you barely notice its existence? Should it be enabled by default or only something that can be enabled by those that want it?

Here is a release notes explaining the system: http://zero-k.info/Forum/Thread/23988.
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USrankFealthas
24 days ago
Thanks for implementing it.
I find it convenient because you can select units without having a consider cons that are building around in that area(was a huge annoyance previously).

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AUrankSnuggleBass
24 days ago
I'm obviously pretty happy with it considering I was advocating for its implementation.

I don't think it should be enabled by default though. It's far from intuitive, and judging from the initial uproar, it's frustrating too.
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AUrankAquanim
24 days ago
My primary frusturation has been inability to select constructors promptly when they are mixed in with other units. I suspect I've lost more constructors unnecessarily to this than to moving my constructors with my army by mistake but I'm not certain of it.
+1 / -0



EErankAdminAnarchid
24 days ago
I disabled it as soon as o found out how to, with intention to try to figure out how to use it with a modifier key to handle bombs sometime in the future.
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LVrankSenaven
24 days ago
I disabled it after some games. I think it should not be enabled by default.
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AUrankAdminGoogleFrog
24 days ago
(edited 24 days ago)

AUrankSnuggleBass do you have a record of the uproar? I don't recall any. I was under the impression that there was a generally positive response because some people familiar with SupComm clambered for its implementation and everyone else seemed to not notice.

I think that the main purpose of selection rank is to prevent canceling constructor orders when you try to move your army and accidentally move some constructors as well. I think I have ingrained Ctrl+X spam to avoid this issue so I need to know how useful the selection rank is and whether it is worth the drawbacks. The main drawback is if players are confused about how to select their units, I think it is fairly discoverable though.

One confusing factor is SupComm as it implements selection rank and nobody seems to complain about it. Does it just depend what you are used to? Many gamers in this genre have played SupComm so will the average new player expect selection rank? Does anyone have more information about the SupComm aspect?
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PLrankFailer
24 days ago
(edited 24 days ago)

I didnt even notice it exists. I never cared about suiciding cons cuz I never mixed them with units.
And even if they were mixed by accident, I simply selected the blob, told it to go right, then choose only cons with unit selection panel (shift + LMB was it?) And tell them to go left. Viola.

Im too orthodox for such innovations. Especially when I dont know how it works, and am too lazy to do some research.
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AUrankAdminGoogleFrog
24 days ago
It's interesting that you didn't notice its existence since it has a significant effect and it is enabled automatically. In short, it prevents you from making a mixed selection of constructors and other units unless you hold a modifier key.

It is also interesting that everyone besides USrankFealthas have only talked about suiciding constructors, not canceling their orders. ZK also doesn't have command dragging (although there is a non-default widget for command dragging). Perhaps people tend to make shorter build queues in ZK so they don't care as much about their queues. I know that I tend to make quite short queues but I don't know how long the queues are in SupComm either. I'm not even sure that people use command dragging.
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JPrankgajop
24 days ago
So is that the thing that disables selecting cons?

I kinda liked being able to select all units and order a general Fight order before microing the specifics.
Fight in ZK is smart, unlike in other games like SC, and it's often useful to give those orders to cons.
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ATrankSkasi
24 days ago
(edited 24 days ago)

I kinda disabled it after a few games, when I decided to not be too lazy and actually got myself to look at settings. I didn't disable it completely, I just had to find the button that sets all units to the same rank (btw the button for that should be moved to the same menu the rest of the widgets settings are in!!), cause I still want to eventually be able to ctrl+x/z without selecting fleas that I manually set to a lower rank.

Default settings interfered with my factory waypoint placing. I could no longer drag a box to select the factory.

(Another thing that interfered was the inability to use the F hotkey for factory waypoints, but that's a different topic and also solved by now.)
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RUrankivand
24 days ago
(edited 24 days ago)

I have used a homegrown widget called "accidental commands blocker" for at least couple of years and it provides similar functions, yet slightly different.

The issue I was trying to deal with with this widget was that in the heat of combat I often needed all my combat units to make a final push or something similar, so I dragged a selection rectangle over the group of units present on my screen, pressed Ctrl-Z or Ctrl-X and went for the push. More often than I'd like I was accidentally selecting a cons along with the combat units, therefore after I Ctrl-X/Z-ed the selected units all my build orders for the nearby or even all conses got cancelled. It was taking quite an amount of APM to restore the build orders and I was often late to notice conses were part of the combat group.

So I made a widget. Basically it tracks if Ctrl-X/Z was pressed recently enough (2 seconds, configurable) and if group was mixed (meaning combat + cons units) and order was to move, fight, attack or stop, then I blocked such order and displayed a huge text warning.

Back to the topic, I found the selection rank widget solves similar problem, but in a different way. And I personally found it useful. Having that said it's probably worth placing a button somewhere in UI to disable/enable it globally.
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CHrankAdminDeinFreund
24 days ago
I instantly disabled it but later switched to alt-mode. By default I prefer selecting everything, but if I want more detailed control it's nice to have the option. Often I still simply select all units and give reclaim/build/attack orders which automatically only affect one type of units. I would like another key (shift-alt?) to select cons only.

This behavior also assures nobody is confused by it being on by default. Also please change commander default to constructor level. I don't think anyone treats his commander as a standard fighting units and it's very annoying to have his queue messed up.
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GBrankCaptainKlutz
24 days ago
I really like having the option. It took a bit of tweaking but I got it to a place where it complimented my play; not selecting my commander with my units, but selecting builders with my commander, for instance, and separating AA/artillery from frontline. I'm not sure if it should be default, or if all units should start on 1, to make life for new and old players easier.
+1 / -0


CHrankAdminDeinFreund
24 days ago
(edited 24 days ago)

If we could combine the ideas of GBrankCaptainKlutz with custom modifier key mapping that'd make for a great and easy to use selection interface(compared to the mess that is zk keys). For example one could configure alt for fighter units, alt Ctrl for assaults/riots/skirms, alt shift for raiders, alt meta for arty and so on, all while no modifier selection is the intuitive select all. (Yes I use Emacs)
+1 / -0


NLrankShyrka
24 days ago
I find it pretty useful and saved my day at least once.
Thank you very much for implementing it.
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AUrankSnuggleBass
24 days ago
No record /slash don't really have the time.

I remember when you first made the changes that the first 3-4 people I talked to about it were desperately trying to figure out how to turn it off. Can't really remember who but it was a mix of GBC and the general populace. It was in stark contrast to my own excitement which is why I remember it at all.
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DErankTopkack
24 days ago
I use both selection hierarchy and command dragging, even tried using First-Order-Orders.


My com is on con rank too, should be default
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AUrankAdminGoogleFrog
24 days ago
(edited 24 days ago)

I've set factories to the highest selection rank by default since their construction queues are uninterruptible. My rationale for high selection rank for commanders is that they often exist in armies and it really bad if you retreat your army and leave your commander behind.
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CHrankAdminDeinFreund
24 days ago
In this case constructors should be highest rank too. I include them in armies even more often than coms because they're expendable and reclaim just as well, but I definitely don't want to just leave them behind.
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