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Wind generator mechanics

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PTrankraaar
8 months ago
(edited 8 months ago)

How exactly is the energy output for wind generators calculated?

The economy section on the wiki is vague.
https://zero-k.info/mediawiki/index.php?title=Economy_Guide


Many maps have the playable area on elevated planes delimited by steep canyons. On those, the current mechanics make wind generators produce too much energy/cost. Winning team can make wind farms and snowball faster.

My suggestion is computing the wind boost factor taking into account the difference in relative altitude between the chosen position and that of the lowest metal spot found, or relative to the average altitude of all metal spots.
+0 / -0



AUrankAdminGoogleFrog
8 months ago
Only Quantum may know or understand why the wind generation is the way that it is. I think it is ok that there are some windy maps. The maps that take place on the top of mountains are somewhat justified in being windy and it creates another facet of gameplay.
+2 / -0


PLrankAdminSprung
8 months ago
(edited 8 months ago)

Edit: see the wikipage: https://zero-k.info/mediawiki/index.php?title=Wind/Tidal_Generator

quote:
How exactly is the energy output for wind generators calculated?


There's a global "wind power", this is a number from 0 to 1. Every 32s the target value changes randomly (uniform distribution) but is reached smoothly over 10s (for example: if power changes from 0.3 to 0.7, it will increase by 0.04 per s for 10s, then sit on that value for the next 22s until the next change). Available as GRP: WindStrength

Each windgen has a minimum income dependent on height, and a maximum of 2.5 E/s. Energy produced is basic interpolation based on power. For example if power is 0.5 then a 0-minimum windgen will produce 1.25 while at the same time a 2.0-minimum one will produce 2.25

Minimum is 2.5 * (0-1 MAP_DEPENDENT_SCALING_FACTOR) * (0-1* height value)

The height value is 0 for windgens at the map's lowest point (or sea level if the map has underwater parts), and 1 for the map's highest peak. You can actually terraform higher to get >1 (as the values depend on initial map state), which helps because the scaling factor is usually <1, but Factor*height caps out at 1 (ie the minimum wind at 2.5)

The map factor is `1/(1+e^(4 - groundExtreme/105))` where groundExtreme is the difference in height between the map's highest and lowest point. Available as GRP: WindSlope

You can space-click a windgen to see a processed "+X min income per 100 elmo" value for given map.

---

ZK wind strength for energy purposes is independent of engine-side wind, which is what BA etc use. Engine wind strength affects things like smoke particles from geospots or wrecks, or confetti from unit deaths. Their direction is correlated but not exactly 1:1 (windgens rotate to match engine-wind direction every 32s when strength updates, but this is a snapshot - physics-wind can change more often than that).

quote:
Only Quantum may know or understand why the wind generation is the way that it is.

I'm no Quantum but the mechanics of wind power (uniform distribution, gradual change, updates periodically) are inherited from OTA, the only things that differs is the height bonus. The map scaling factor is so that you won't get a powerful windgen by placing it on, say, the highest "peak" of CCR. The height bonus is probably an attempt at "realism" with interesting emergent gameplay consequences.
+9 / -0

PTrankraaar
8 months ago
Thanks for the info.

So, if someone makes a map with a high base altitude level, and includes a narrow but very deep hole somewhere in a corner. They get very high wind?

what if you want to make a map with canyons but with sane wind levels? How to achieve that on ZK with the current mechanics? By adding a very tall spike somewhere on the map?


how about you change the mechanics?

+0 / -0


GBrank[GBC]1v0ry_k1ng
8 months ago
What would you change them to? I can't think of a map that is really broken because of wind income.
+0 / -0

GBrankGoober
8 months ago
Can someone just fucking simplify the whole thing im sick of people going "LOL DID HE SERIOUSLY JUST MAKE A WIND GEN ON THIS MAP? HURRRRHUEHIEHUE"

Either make the value constant or some sort of straightforward relative height thing that makes logical sense.
+3 / -4

GBrankGoober
8 months ago
I thought u were meant to be making this the most newb friendly game ever
+0 / -0

PTrankraaar
8 months ago
(edited 8 months ago)

having average income on some maps of 2+ instead of 1.25 per wind generator doesn't "break" the game, but it makes the experience worse.

It also incentivizes some annoying rushes to cripple the opponents' E income early, which only some factories are good at, namely ones that produce blastwings (!!1).

I made a suggestion on the first post to fix this:
quote:
My suggestion is computing the wind boost factor taking into account the difference in relative altitude between the chosen position and that of the lowest metal spot found, or relative to the average altitude of all metal spots.



+0 / -0

PTrankraaar
8 months ago
So an option is to have ZK accept a mapinfo custom parameter that controls the wind gen output somehow.

That way the current behavior stays in place but newer map versions can override it.

a possibility is overriding the reference altitude value for the "lowest point above water", which the map dev could set to something closer to the min altitude where ground units move and stuff happens.


+0 / -0

PTrankraaar
8 months ago
How about a minimum wind multiplier?

mapinfo.custom.zkMinWindMultiplier (default 1)
+0 / -0



SErankGodde
8 months ago
(edited 8 months ago)

quote:
Can someone just fucking simplify the whole thing im sick of people going "LOL DID HE SERIOUSLY JUST MAKE A WIND GEN ON THIS MAP? HURRRRHUEHIEHUE"

Technically, wind generators are always better than solars.
Two wind generator on the lowest possible elevation should on average produce 2.5 energy per second which is better than a solar collector.

quote:
Either make the value constant or some sort of straightforward relative height thing that makes logical sense.
Every time you place a wind generator, you see the minimal and maximum output of the wind generator. The average output of the wind generator is right between the lowest and highest output.
If it says 0-2.5 it will on average produce 1.25 energy per second. If it says 1-2.5 it will produce 1.75 per second on average. If it says 2-2.5 it will produce 2.25 per second on average. If it says 2.5-2.5 it will always produce 2.5 energy per second.

quote:
having average income on some maps of 2+ instead of 1.25 per wind generator doesn't "break" the game, but it makes the experience worse.

It also incentivizes some annoying rushes to cripple the opponents' E income early, which only some factories are good at, namely ones that produce blastwings (!!1).
On the contrary, a cheaper source of energy means sniping energy is less useful and less critical to the enemy operations.
If you fear blastwings, you can just spread out the wind generators at start of the game so you don't lose more than 1 or 2. That way, Blastwings will hardly make cost by destroying wind generators.
The downsides of wind generators are that:
Their income is variable(this makes 0-2.5 wind generators bad at the start of the game as your whole energy income could just vanish due to RnG. Later in the game, you can make Fusion Reactors for higher costefficiency anyway. I wouldn't recommend making wind generators in a 1v1 unless they are above 0.5-2.5 which at least always provides a decent income).
They are fragile(Solars can be used as walls which might decrease your need to have defense).
They take up a lot of space(wind generators are volatile and will chain explode if put to close together)

+1 / -0

PTrankraaar
8 months ago
wind gens are always better than solars on average if you take into account E generation alone.

I also agree that solar collectors' tankiness makes them better options unless the minimum wind is above 0.4 to 0.6. This means that that's a sweet spot I should aim for as a map maker, which is what this thread is about.

If I make maps with tall cliffs delimiting the playable area, I get crazy high wind on ZK (happened on The Hole).
+1 / -0

{redacted}
8 months ago
quote:
Can someone just fucking simplify the whole thing im sick of people going "LOL DID HE SERIOUSLY JUST MAKE A WIND GEN ON THIS MAP? HURRRRHUEHIEHUE"

What do you mean? It's already stupid simple:



If you need some basic examples of where to build wind gen farms, see the Windgenfarm Guide


quote:
I thought u were meant to be making this the most newb friendly game ever

I hope not.
+3 / -0



CZrankAdminLicho
8 months ago
If I remember correctly this is why we made it:

In the BA, there were "wind maps" and "solar maps" - so people would only build on or the other based on the map loaded.

We wanted both to be useful on most maps but each to have some strong and weak points. So solar was meant to double as a wall (it was pre-terraform, pre-overdrive era) but be less efficient. Wind would be more efficient even on flats but highly variable and unreliable, and it would be superior on hills (which are often harder to reach). Strictly speaking it was at one point meant to just be more reliable on hills but it ended being more efficient there too.
Wind was also chain exploding more in the past if i remember correctly.



+1 / -0


AUrankAdminSaktoth
8 months ago
(edited 8 months ago)

I gotta say I do actually miss the 40 cost solar walls, they were very cool and you had to think about where you would place them. Terraform does not really replace this, you use terra walls for fusions and such, not to block off large parts of your base or tank for mexes the way you use solar. It mostly violated my sense of symetry in costing the same (Which is a silly instinct) though it also made energy much harder to raid as they had the same HP as the current ones.
+1 / -0


PLrankAdminSprung
8 months ago
quote:
In the BA, there were "wind maps" and "solar maps" - so people would only build on or the other based on the map loaded.

This seems still largely true in ZK.
+0 / -0

DErankAdminmojjj
8 months ago
Wind generator generate Wind right? Else these would habe been victims of renaming right?
+0 / -0

PTrankraaar
8 months ago
sigh

the problem is not that there is variety of wind-generation output between maps or whatever, the problem is that it's tied to an internal ZK mechanic that map makers CANNOT OVERRIDE.


quote:

How about a minimum wind multiplier?

mapinfo.custom.zkMinWindMultiplier (default 1)



yay or nay?
+0 / -0


PLrankAdminSprung
8 months ago
I think a multiplier would be fine.
+0 / -0

FIrank[ffc]
8 months ago
Isn't there max and min wind option on settings?
+0 / -0
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