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Arguments for only one Ladder...

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AUrank4hundred
3 months ago
(edited 3 months ago)



My picture don't work, oh well, its a pic of ladders atm, top 12
A bit of admin abuse for a better future
- hoko

+0 / -0




EErankAdminAnarchid
3 months ago
(edited 3 months ago)

- Increased prediction accuracy compared to separate ladders, because more data
- No weird cases where i'm purple on some ladder, so i'm purple on all ladders
- No confusion which ladder a played game counts towards
- Government will not take your guns [?]

+3 / -1


AUrank4hundred
3 months ago
(edited 3 months ago)

If you need to defend yourself against the government in mass, some outter entity will send you way better shit than AR15s, or like the local army base?, or just commit murder, not revolution. Oh, about those ladders..
+0 / -0


PLrankOrfelius
3 months ago
So... what are your arguments then? You provided us with a picture. Perhaps you should describe what do you have on your mind exactly.
+1 / -1




EErankAdminAnarchid
3 months ago
Now that there's a picture, i'd say something like "entire top 7 is same people in the same order, and the other 5 are the same people in a different order" kind of jumps out at you.
+2 / -0

NLrankWesley
3 months ago
Hmm looks like we need a ladder reset.
+0 / -0


CHrankAdminDeinFreund
3 months ago
(edited 3 months ago)

quote:
- No weird cases where i'm purple on some ladder, so i'm purple on all ladders

Just to clarify: If we had one ladder, the ranks would be in the same order as the ladder. No more purple at rank 7 plebs.

Right now there's people being purple just because it was easy to get in planetwars, which has its own ladder again.
+1 / -0


SErankGodde
3 months ago
DeinFreund himself have said that completely separate ratings for competitive and casual have greater predictability once enough games have been played in either bracket.
+0 / -0


AUrank4hundred
3 months ago
(edited 3 months ago)

quote:
Just to clarify: If we had one ladder, the ranks would be in the same order as the ladder. No more purple at rank 7 plebs.


To clarify further; same thing, remove the mirror.

Colour ranks are cool, they still have purpose. (not just the purpose of making color lit ladder party or whatever your were trying to say)
+0 / -0


CHrankAdminDeinFreund
3 months ago
(edited 3 months ago)

quote:
DeinFreund himself have said that completely separate ratings for competitive and casual have greater predictability once enough games have been played in either bracket.


I'm sorry to say I couldn't confirm this for the whole zk dataset(battles), it only worked with a small subset I used for testing. For the entire set, the combined rating was always equal or better, even when limiting the split rating to a very small set of players.

Either way the system will probably stay the same for the coming weeks, as we're approaching steam release. This means we get to see if the separated ratings stay the same as or actually give SErankGodde a different casual than competitive rank. (Ratings have been separated about a week ago)
+1 / -0


SErankGodde
3 months ago
In that case...
Bawwww... my casual rating is overrated. Please separate casual and competitive ratings completely.
+1 / -0


AUrank4hundred
3 months ago
I think someone has one ladder affecting the other?, no? russians? no?

AND if not, its all fucking pointless, 1 ladder..

[Spoiler]
+0 / -0



AUrankAdminGoogleFrog
3 months ago
It doesn't matter whether combined rating is more or less accurate. What matters is that people don't expect to get casual rating for MM or vise versa and they may think that it is more or less accurate (or unfair).
+5 / -0

NLrankmalric
3 months ago
I think what is used for balancing can be different from what it is displayed (meaning there can ba "global hidden ladder" used for balancing and multiple "visible ladders". Even now the balancing is a like a black box - not really clear why balancing is what it is)

Argument in favor of the above is that more people will "feel" they are good/have something to defend. And having more happy/committed users sounds good.

Currently on both ladders there are 68 unique players, so overlap between the 2 current ladders is not as complete as for the first 12 positions.
+2 / -0


USrankFealthas
3 months ago
I think we should have a ladder per map and per game type. This leads to O(N^M) ladder number growth in the worst case, but it means we would get better balance.
+3 / -1

NLrankmalric
3 months ago
Any argument why we would get better balance?...

Having for each map a ladder could be fun (not sure if it is worth the effort development effort but that's another story).

<not that serious>
In the end, we could have "custom ladders" - generate based on a filter the ranking. (ex: maps with water, games with 3,5,7 players, with players A and B present and players C and D not present).


Then we could have an algorithm that for each player finds the "biggest" (most games) ladder for which you are the first.
</not that serious>
+0 / -0


NOrankKingstad
3 months ago
I may be stupid, which is fine, but couldnt PW ladder just be disconnected from the other two, meaning it doesnt affect rank colors? Purely be an overview of how active and useful you have been in PW.
+1 / -0



GBrankPRO_rANDY
3 months ago
Slightly off topic but vaguely related to ladders. I think it would be great to have more statistics available on a players profile, such as a record for each map, versus a particular opponent, when starting a certain factory etc.
+1 / -0


CHrankAdminDeinFreund
3 months ago
(edited 3 months ago)

quote:
USrankFealthas
I think we should have a ladder per map and per game type. This leads to O(N^M) ladder number growth in the worst case, but it means we would get better balance

It's exactly the opposite. I've done many tests for different ladder systems and having one single ladder combining all game modes, maps and specialties into one rating simply gives the best results for rating accuracy.

AUrankAdminGoogleFrog If there's only one ladder there's also no confusion in what ladder a game counts towards, they either count towards the ladder, or not.

Reasons for having multiple ladders are purely aesthetic. It might be more relaxing to know your casual games don't count towards the MM ladder or that you get a fresh start for each planet wars. As long as people prefer having this peace of mind I don't mind maintaining multiple ladders, but it's definitely not for accuracy nor tangibility.

USrankThread what are we actually discussing here? The first post isn't very clear to me. I'm just trying to show arguments for/against a single ladder vs the current system. AUrank4hundred do you want a single ladder, why?
+0 / -0


AUrank4hundred
3 months ago
Simply showed that the current 2 ladders are near mirror image, implying it is 1 argument for 1 ladder.
+1 / -0
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