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OP Mace + Com Combo

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USrankUnLuky
2 months ago
So a few weeks ago I was doing 1v1 matchmaking and I think I was going with the tank factory at the time in the Comet Catcher Redux map, and my opponent went with the hover factory. He rushed me with both a mace and his commander which is how I came to know this OP early game tactic. I also had a discussion in the chat yesterday night about how the numbers add up with a mace compared to other riot units. In that game which I discovered it, I recall having around 3 laser towers and my commander against his mace and commander, and to my surprise he actually beat all 3 towers and destroyed my commander and still had a little hp left to destroy the rest of my base. Now that was just the first time I discovered it, I had it used on me a few more times over the past couple weeks and they were all very effective against me. So recently I decided to try it for myself, it is a sure-fire way to win the game easily. Here are a few replays which I used this, and I have also perfected this technique by upgrading my commander with a beam laser and the module that lets you increase range. Once the mace is finished you simply start producing skirmishers to help out your commander in the meantime.

Replays:
http://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/571643
http://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/571738
http://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/563608 (Mace rush used against me)


+0 / -0


JPrankgajop
2 months ago
The commander is usually a bigger problem. A mace can be countered effectively by a skirm
+0 / -0

PTrankraaar
2 months ago
(edited 2 months ago)

Mace just fits that strategy well. NorthchileanG was doing a similar rush a while ago but with reavers and ronins instead of the mace. It can work with various combinations.

Maybe the jump commander's low jump cooldown is really a problem early game as it allows the commander to plop the factory closer to the enemy base and then keep up with the fast riot easier.



I've noticed that some high level players use it instead of the engineer and jump around to expand as fast as possible instead of rushing.


btw, this was noticeable sometimes
+0 / -0


DErankChesti
2 months ago
here a mace rush too.

https://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/571532

https://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/571538
+0 / -0


GBrank[Fx]Drone
2 months ago
Mace rush has been pretty common for a while now, it is extremely difficult to deal with early on and in small team games I've noticed the team which rushes is almost always at an advantage, especially on a map like altair crossing which DErankChesti linked.

What makes it more OP in small teams is that you can mix other stuff with the mace rush (glaives is really common one) and even if you react super quickly it can still be a nightmare, there's no easy counter. Skirmishers don't cut the mustard when you have a mace running down your commander or annihilating your base. Skirmishers suck in very low numbers.

Me and jaz lost to the 2 guys who love to do this tactic (Mystic and Necrosjef) on Aliendesert. Even though there was a considerable skill difference and we had tanks on a flat map (when tanks were more OP), the combo of mace/glaive was too stronk. It wasn't even the rush which killed us, they chose not to over commit and simply used this powerful army to keep us contained and eventually forced their way in. Porc really doesnt help vs such high dps, and a really smart player would throw in 1 halberd to tank.
+0 / -0


GBrank[Fx]Drone
2 months ago
If anyone is wondering though, the answer to a straight up mace rush in a 1v1 is to stop everything you're doing (cancel lab order, set com high priority) and spam LLTs. 3 LLTs and a lightning gun on your com is good enough but you have to be very careful bringing your com into its range.

This typically works for most rushes. Howver the enemy commander may throw a wrench into the plan depending how its equipped. Missile coms outrange LLT I think?

Also map size is a factor, if you see someone rushing you on a map like onyx cauldron you probably have plenty of time to get up a stinger.
+2 / -0


JPrankgajop
2 months ago
Depends what your factory is.. I'd say skirmishers are a better counter in many cases, e.g. buoy or scalpel.
If you try to counter with defenses they can still destroy stuff or use com to repair the Mace. They end up putting a lot of pressure on you.
+1 / -0

PTrankraaar
2 months ago
enemies that plopped tanks may be more vulnerable to these rushes, because
- no cheap scout
- no cheap skirmisher
- may invest early on kodachi or blitz which can't fight mace well

maybe ogre and mace do need a slight speed nerf.


rovers may survive the rush and get a huge advantage if they scout with darts and make a dominatrix which can kite and capture both the commander and the mace.
+1 / -0

HRrankMajo
2 months ago
I don't see a problem with a mace/ogre rush.
Their goal is to get into your base while killing everything on the way and kill your factory/commander.
If you've done your duty and sent out a scout you should see that they are rushing either of those, and a single Stardust on an elevated(75 Elmo higher than the ground) position can solo both for half their cost, 220M Stardust>400M Mace/420M Ogre, put an LLT or a Picket behind the stardust and you're guaranteed to kill it.

If it's rushed with a commander just put more LLTs or get skirmishers(or raiders if the riot dies) side by side and commander will be forced to either run or build pickets/stingers to deal with your defense.
+1 / -0


DErankkatastrophe
2 months ago
(edited 2 months ago)

1: I don´t think forcing your enemy to build a stinger 5 elmo away from your base is a good idea.

2: What you need to consider is that you must not spend more metal in your defense than your enemy spend on the mace and morph, especially at that super-early stage of the game. your opponent pays the rush with untaken mexes and unbuild e. if your opponent gets to build up their eco because you need all your attention for your base and you have spent all your metal for defenses, you are at a serious disadvantage.
+1 / -0


USrankOflameo
2 months ago
USrankUnLuky in 571738 says that he is trying to get the Mace nerfed. Games 571738 & 571643 strangely didn't have any static defense built in the base. In 563608 the game that happed first chronologically and the game that USrankUnLuky lost, the Mace was actually destroyed by USrankUnLuky with a Lotus and a Welder and a Commander had to finish the job.

As a meta-strategy, I like that Riot Rushes are possible because it is counter to Raider Rushes. It also keeps games from turning into porc and squat because no one is going to squat after knocking down a riot rush because there is going to be barely anything to stop an expansion. Games will end sooner rather than later and I think that is a good thing.

It also keeps Jump Com from being OP because they are much weaker than other Coms to Riot rush because of their lack of HP and power.
+1 / -0


USrank_Shaman
2 months ago
Mace is only good for rushes. As a riot it is pretty poor against swarms of cheap raiders. This is a flaw of single target high dps riots like mace and redback. These are better at combating mid to high weight raiders than they are against low weights like scouts and light raiders (glaives, bandits). If mace is to have its speed nerfed, it needs some hp to compensate for it.

It's a 400m riot unit, the 3rd most expensive nonstrider riot in the game (only topped by banisher and felon).
+1 / -0


AUrank4hundred
2 months ago
bah, if u see it coming early enough u can deal with it, if u dont spot these things early enough u deserve to die. note to self
+0 / -0


ROrankSigero
2 months ago
if mace rush happens and u dint scout it in time and dint even have radar to see it coming = GG

If scouted early make skirmishers.
If scouted with radar cancel everything and even reclaim what you are building,rush commander rocket launcher or lighting gun make 1 picket and llt next to factory then build skirmishers.When u morph com only add the weapon and the other module should be empty,normaly you should have enough time to get all that.
+2 / -0

GBrankehtomlol
2 months ago
Peoples default reaction to this seems to be that its easily countered.

However, on some maps that is just not the case. See Drone and gajop's responses -- this strategy is actually extremely difficult to counter given how easy it is to execute.

Counters:

Skirmishers - You need like 5 of them, you wont have 5 of them. 1-2 will not stop it from destroying your entire base and com.
LLT - This combo can easily kill 3 turrets.
Stinger - Works but map needs to be big.
Domi Rush or some other super specific counter - Didnt try it but it probably works, not really a good suggestion though as what if they dont do a mace com rush?

Personally I think some of the maps are just too small and make this kind of cheese almost inevitable.

+1 / -0

PLrankskomac
2 months ago
Always scout.

http://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/574601
+0 / -0

GBrankehtomlol
2 months ago
Posting a link of me trying it randomly on a map which is shitty for it anyway and where you have a good fac against it doesn't really prove anything.
+1 / -0




EErankAdminAnarchid
2 months ago
(edited 2 months ago)

My confident opinion is that you should scout even when you're the one performing the rush, as long as your scout units are reasonably cheap.

Scouting as Hovers in front of a Mace rush costs you a 90m Dagger - this is something of an investment to consider - but also keep in mind, it may save your Mace from a Domi response!

Scouting as Spiders, Rovers, or Cloaky is dirt cheap, especially considering the possibly catastrophic cost of being surprised and the rush-assist utility of their scout units (killing skirmishers, slowing/killing assaults, wasting shots, finding better target locations, preventing sneak-out expansions etc).

Now, given all that, scouting ASAP as a non-rushing player is is simply the ABC of ZK. How do you intend to win at all if you have no idea what the enemy is up to? They could be cheesing, sure, but that's just one way for you to lose. They could also be naked expanding, or they could rapid-porc some critical map-center chokepoint with their commander, etc.

---

If you think Mace rushes are oppressive, wait until you encounter a well-executed Fencer rush.
+5 / -0


ROrankSigero
2 months ago
(edited 2 months ago)

Fencer rush is scary,but it dont really have the wipe-out potential of a lucky mace rush.But in my experience fencer rush is actually MUCH harder to counter then this mace rush bs.
One thing to consider is that when you are rushing and the enemy is also rushing who will win? the one that scouted.
+1 / -0

USrankHun_Tzu
2 months ago
quote:
if mace rush happens and u dint scout it in time and dint even have radar to see it coming = GG

If scouted early make skirmishers.
If scouted with radar cancel everything and even reclaim what you are building,rush commander rocket launcher or lighting gun make 1 picket and llt next to factory then build skirmishers.When u morph com only add the weapon and the other module should be empty,normaly you should have enough time to get all that.


^
Really nice, detailed, high-level advice there.

Also, on paper, well-microed fencers should be able to kite or outright kill almost every unit in the game. And theoretically, most of the units that can kill it don't even win by a big margin. I mean, maybe they're not top-notch for map control, but I wouldn't be surprised if that short-coming can't be easily overcome with scorchers or some aggressive lotus/stardust creep to anchor the fencers against faster units. Emissaries seem like they'd also be in a similar boat with their incredible range and speed. At least lances laughably overkill anything that costs less than 150ish metal.
+0 / -0
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