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Title: MM 4235: 1v1, Rank Singularity
Host: Nobody
Game version: Zero-K v1.9.6.4
Engine version: 104.0.1-1544-ge1f249f
Battle ID: 1140811
Started: 2 years ago
Duration: 16 minutes
Players: 2
Bots: False
Mission: False
Rating: Competitive
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Team 1
Chance of victory: 57.5%

RUrankizirayd
Team 2
Chance of victory: 42.5%

NLrankMSPR
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EErankAdminAnarchid
CAranknoobula
DErankbloa

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2 years ago
hovers are a piece of shit, can't do anything to ogres. All fights against ogres are not profitable in price, in general. Why is it so shitty?
+0 / -0
2 years ago
Can an ogre be of the same type? Not all types in one unit
+0 / -0


2 years ago
What's wrong with Scalpels to counter Ogre?
+0 / -0
2 years ago
Probably the fact that the ogres resist any type of unit and pushed llt without problems and do it very effectively, and the scalpel does not withstand all types of units, it is slower than the ogre and takes damage from llt. In addition, the scalpel takes damage from the ogres when fighting with ogres. The scalpel does not kill ogres without loss.
+0 / -0
2 years ago
If the ogre is a riot, then any type of sub-artillery must kill him. If the ogre is sub-artillery, it should be killed by any raider. But ogre and sub-artillery / riot are also with powerful AoE. One ogre is not an incredible danger yet, but two ogres are already an insanely strong group. Try to fight with mace vs ogres, see how much it costs for mace.
+0 / -0
2 years ago
I've already seen so many patches, there were times when there was mono-spam of Maces - after mace got nerf, now it looks like mono-spam of ogres, only 1 buff ogre..
+0 / -0
Scalpels looked like they countered ogres, and could do so without taking damage if their turn rate was better.

If the scalpel is sideways by the time the ogre steps in range I don't think the ogre could get a shot off.

The question I have is what is hover supposed to open with vs tanks? Can daggers efficiently counter kodachis or do you need bolas? Bolas are horrid vs static defenses and don't raid as well due to their slow speed.

What surprised me about this game is not ogre vs scalpel, but rather how tank managed to control a greater portion of map way faster than hovers did, and considering the players involved, I wouldn't think that's explained by player skill.
+1 / -0


2 years ago
I think the issue was mainly in the opening. Tank seems to have an easier opening (which probably has to be the case given Scalpel), but I also think @Masper executed it more cleanly.

  • The Hover side made no LLTs near expansions while Tank made one in every cluster early on.
  • Hover had commander idling, eg from 0:46 to 1:01. The Tank comm had a little idle time from 1:13 to 1:16 and then 1:29 to 1:32.
  • Hover made two Daggers to send around the back, which I generally think is a bad idea. Daggers are significantly more powerful in groups so aren't something to be dripped into enemy territory like Scorchers or Kodachi. If I start Dagger I try to send at least four over to the other side of the map so they post a threat.
  • Hover lost the two Daggers at 2:15 for nothing.


The economies are fairly even. I think Tank has a nicer position though.
  • Tank has LLTs at its expansions.
  • Tank is adding another constructor.
  • The Hover commander has walked into a bit of an expansion doldrums rather than the standard bottom path.

Afterwards:
  • The hover comm builds a mex then idles until 2:37.
  • The lone Quill spends a lot of time repairing Bolas rather than expanding. This is what it has to do with no LLT support.
  • Hover only has one con and is at -4 energy income compared to metal, which makes the repair even worse.
  • Three Bolas sit north from 4:20 until 4:50, by which point expanding Welders have arrived and built up defenses.


It looks pretty dire by now, before any Ogres have arrived.

I don't think pure Bolas with no LLT is going to work. It's just a way to get trapped near your base as you need to spend about as much in Bolas to spread out and defend against incoming Kodachi. An LLT to support the Bolas is extremely efficient. Here are some things I'd want to see tried.
  • Try Dagger. Five Daggers can efficiently chase down and kill a Kodachi, and are so much faster that this will essentially force all Kodachis to travel in pairs. Ten Daggers can start threatening to sweep through expansions popping LLTs.
  • Try Halberd. It takes 37 seconds for a Kodachi to kill a mobile Halberd. It can easily jink around and kill some mexes in that time.
  • Make radar and LLT to support the above. LLT forces the Kodachi to commit rather than poke around getting attrition and radar is good for positioning.
  • Maybe even try Claymore. It was buffed and now reliably 2-shots Kodachi. This seems good if they come in groups.

None of these suggestions have to scale because Hover really just wants to make a Scalpel ball without falling too far behind. Add a Lance if there are a lot of Ogres or HLTs. Make small groups of Halberd because Tank generally has terrible DPS (Kodachi and Blitz have some of the lowest DPS/cost).
+4 / -0
quote:
Try Dagger. Five Daggers can efficiently chase down and kill a Kodachi, and are so much faster that this will essentially force all Kodachis to travel in pairs. Ten Daggers can start threatening to sweep through expansions popping LLTs.

I see a flaw in this plan: the five daggers cost much more than a single kodachi, and take casualties when fighting it. The tank player can kind of muscle through this without even bothering to pair up.
+0 / -0
I'd say 3-4 Daggers can counter a single Kodachi fairly well in defense. They need to be well spread out though and you basically never want to actually have to chase down a kodachi if you can't surround it.
If you have some Lotus turrets, just 1 or 2 Daggers is enough to prevent lone Kodachis from killing lone Lotus turrets one by one.
I prefer to use Daggers against Tanks in 1v1 over Bolas. Daggers works well enough in defense while Kodachi in turn kinda suck in defense against Daggers. Daggers can just outmaneuver Kodachis or turn around and kill lone chasing Kodachis.
+0 / -0
2 years ago
The analysis of this particular game is good, but the conclusion about ogres is made on the basis of many games.

It was in this match that I was not very good.

quote:
Try Dagger. Five Daggers can efficiently chase down and kill a Kodachi, and are so much faster that this will essentially force all Kodachis to travel in pairs. Ten Daggers can start threatening to sweep through expansions popping LLTs.


Daggers work worse than bolas.
I've already tested daggers, I didn't like it when a successful U-turn during the Kodachi raid killed a couple of daggers for me. Better to use bolas, at least it works.

quote:
Maybe even try Claymore. It was buffed and now reliably 2-shots Kodachi. This seems good if they come in groups.


Claymore still bad;

+0 / -0


2 years ago
Maces crush Ogres when retreating and Scalpels if microd well will also beat Ogres handily.

Then Lance comes out and deletes an Ogre from existence every 30 seconds for the rest of the game...
+0 / -0
2 years ago
quote:
All fights against ogres are not profitable in price, in general. Why is it so shitty?

+1 / -0
2 years ago
I would like to know, if you put one halberd on hold fire, and just get close to the ogre, as close that its own aoe hits it.
Would the ogre die before the halberd would? I am not certain.

But against some clustered ogres, i can garantee that this tactic works.
+1 / -0
I think ogre dies first. (I will test this though and report the results.)

Apparently ogres don't damage themselves with their own splash... (Go figure.) But with another ogre it kills an allied ogre before halberd dies.

+2 / -0

2 years ago
Ogre: I can punch myself really hard in the face and fly across the room, but I can't knock myself out.
+0 / -0


2 years ago
There are very few units that damage themselves by their own weapon. Most don't.
+0 / -0