jumpbots needs adjusting

I think the unreliability of Jumpbots is sort of the point. They're not quite a "joke" factory so much as a testing bed for experimental factory unit designs, and one that happens to be pretty funny pretty often.

The factory is more than the sum of its parts, and its value gets especially ridiculous in team games when people play together or at least plate each other's factories effectively.

In particular I think you're really undervaluing the Jugglenaut in your assessment. The Jugglenaut is shown repeatedly to be an effective tool at breaking up stalemates or outright ending games.

The Pyro is also not only effective as a Riot vs Raiders, it's downright oppressive when micro'd well. It's gotta be one of the highest skill cap units in the game. Every time I see a replay of a higher ranking player using the Pyro it's a bit shocking.

PERSONALLY, I think the Factory's biggest problem right now is the Puppy. It's a very binary unit. I'm not sure what can be done about it exactly, but unless it just acts as a scout unit, as a combat unit it feels either very oppressive or completely useless (blob exploding to any proper riot or random splash hits.)

Add cloak to jack (morph from cornea, no fac needed, 600 cost still) and you get a pretty effective walk in jackhammer something to dust, jump out rotation.
Juggle is also incredibly scary when jumping into a blob of units out of cloak (hold fire on the gravguns to sneak up)
This is not only jumpbot factory advice, most factories get like 1.5x effectiveness just by adding cloak.
I also recommend autoretreat, since that makes jumpbots autojump to retreat. (Pyro can live through a stinger shot by doing this)


But, I'd argue Jump has the most potential to benefit off all of their units working together in one composition.


Mod, Placeholder and Juggle are great setup tools for their close range factory partners.
Mod is also the best flex AA and AA support one could ask for, and pyros can jump after the planes too

Inversely, jack, juggle pyro and puppy make protectors against anything that would want to rush down your moderators.
Pyro kites most raiders easily, puppy is selfreplicating of their wrecks too. Juggle just pushes them away, and anything in jack range will sort of die.
Puppy also deters raiders from swarming pyro too early on.

Firewalker helps jumps vs swarmy skirmishers and spread out light porc they have troubles with.

The Issue is that they pay for this possibility, also literrally. Theyre expensive, and squishy, or expensive and relatively slow.

Also, 40 seconds to kill an ogre without any loss, without any attention and guranteed is pretty good
I cant think of anything that can reliably do that. Sure other skirms do it eventually too, but theyre less reliable than even lone mod.
(one could argue just the placeholder effectively "kills" the ogre too, since at that point any skirm can land the kill)

And saying that juggle jump only has 100 dps ignores the usual usecase of jumping on a bunch of units. its essentially a reusable snitch.

Well, things caught by placeholder are effectively out of the game unless they outrange it. (which would then make them a riot counter)
Placeholder can effectively stall other riots like no other can.

And you get that burn by walking in pyro and jumping it out, or having a firewalker. (Which is more fun gameplay wise, and a synergy that would be weakend or removed)

Placeholder with damage would just become better firewalker, since its cheaper and gurantees the kill on anything it traps. (that cant shoot back, but skirms are squishy by default too, so you can dance your placeholder and probably farm those too. Even with no perma black hole, you just need 2 placeholders for the effect.)

Repair stations should usually be caretakers anyhow, have a con make one, then start the others whenever you need more and have them built by caretakers. The jump is powerfull in keeping your cons alive in frontline reclaiming

Jacks are pretty comfy in a placeholder hole killing things, and jumping out when everything is dead, its only really an issue if placeholder misses or so, which is then not something to go in on.

lobster scallops are so op

[Spoiler]

but toad, moderators, fire-walkers (great anti spider / cloaks) and placeholder are amazing imho

i could never get the hang of juggle..

puppy can deny reclaim and push wrecked crumbling front-lines.. its nice vs things like sniper too

but skutle is my most loved unit of all time <3 man those things are fun when they work

i have this strange feeling that jumpies are really good vs jumpies.. they seem to counter themselves well

It has a lot of weaknesses, without the strengths to counteract them.

It's cost/value is the weakest of any faction, even planes.

Every unit in it's roster is easy to counter and require the support of a different factories units to be effective and act as meat shields. Planes are the only other faction that even arguably have this weakness.

OP mentioned the weaknesse sof soem units. But i want to put out that most of it's roster are more likely to kill themselves or allies than enemies without close micro. Making them extremely low value.


Some other paremeters might need to be enrfed to compensate but i think it would be reaosnably balanced with changes like:

Pyro: Heals from fire damage or is atleast immune or highly resistant to it. This prevents them from team killing and makes them uniquely self sustaining raider/riots. Allowing them to compete in cost efficency with glaives and kodachis. While retaining relevance into late game meles with larger groups of units.

Moderator: Give them a jump. This way they arn't completly reliant on a meatshield escort, but are still pretty easy to catch with a determined attacker. You could also give them a small aoe blast on hit. All stunning weapons have excessively large AOEs enabling them to kill groups of raiders with easy. It would justify their pathetic DPS and inability to act as proper skirmishers. Without changing their identity as immobile marksmen.

Placeholders: Give them a jump. Replace their black hole with a field of the same size that rapidly builds up slow,stun and/or emp on all units within. This makes them more relevant against foes of all sizes at all stages of the game, while also giving attentive foes a chance to escape the field.
Adding a small amount of damage could also allow them to act as pseudo artillery like minelayers.

Firewalkers: Give them a jump. These guys really only need a small cost reduction or atk rate buff. just a tiny one. I think the faction being innefective vs shields is a fine weakness that players can reaosnably play around. This could also be moved to the strider factory, making room for a apropriate unit.

Juggle Naught: The jump should apply its gravity cannons in a spherical aoe around the size of the bast (push or pull). Making up for it's low damage. I also think this should be moved to the strider factory, making room for a more apropriate unit.

Jacks: Should have their damage and hp slightly reduced in return for leaving a small fire pool when they attack. Allowing them to stay thematic to the faction, be easier to counter and slightly less oppressive as mono spam.

Constable: Should be given a weak flamethrower in additon to their slow cannon. this would allow them to actually have a meaningfull self defence against early raiders. Compared to a welder they are waaay overpriced. for 45 more metal the welder gets more than 3 times it's hp, 25% more build power and 6x constables dps at a greater range. Of course it should be a bit mor efficent, due to mobility weaknesses of being a tank, but not multiple times stronger and mroe effeicent.

Puppy: these guys are fine stat and featurewise. They just need to be given an ai command similar to a constructors "recycle", so you don't have to micro them so much.

Skuttle: im nto sure how i feel about these. They are effective at efficently taking out extremly expensive units like striders. But against soemthing like a crab, they might not even make cost. You need 2 of them minimum to land, if either fails and you need a 3rd your no longer cost efficent.
It's also a massive diversion of resources to build them in the first place. which is hard to do when your likely already on the backfoot from surprise dante/grisly/paladin etc..
And after all that they are countered by any cheap unit. 100 metal of fleas can easily counter this 550 behemoth without much risk.

Toad: give it a small flamethrower and or slow laser. Given moderators can hitscan aircraft and even pyros can take them down at close range, toads are largely redundant for this factory. This change would make them effective at the unique role of prolonged air defence, which is generally accompanied by raiders and builders to claim the newly bombed region. As well as keeping them relevant once an enemy gives up on aircraft, which also often happens after foiling an bombing rush.

quote: Moderator: Give them a jump.

quote: Placeholders: Give them a jump.

quote: Firewalkers: Give them a jump.

you think you want this but holy moly you really dont

another example of things that need to be adjusted

constable and convict (jump/shield respectively)

constable: cost 140m, health 550, speed 63, buildpower 5, can jump, has a slowing gun that does 7dps

convict: cost 120m, health 780, speed 61.5, buildpower 5, has a regenerating shield of 900 that other units can possibly hide inside and contributes to shield-sharing



why is a constable SO SQUISHY, for its cost and buildpower, its TERRIBLE... yes im aware that jumping can keep it safe with auto-retreat... but is it THAT much safer?

just comparing a few builders cost/health/BP

constable and convict are already listed above...

conjurer: 120m, 600 hp, 5 BP
mason: 120m, 1000hp, 5 BP
welder: 185m, 1700 hp, 7.5 BP (and theyre armed)

does the ability to jump and a 7dps gun warrant being THAT expensive, THAT squishy, and THAT weak for being armed??

hell, even a welder does 43 dps.. has 3x the health, goes the same speed, and has better BP.... and its only 45 medal more



then start comparing the costs/health/dps to other units like skirmershers, youll see that moderators arent very effecient

the factory is seen as good because its being carried by a few units, not because the factory is good

id take a minor nerf to placeholders (like giving a bit of counterplay to getting units out of a single placeholder) if it means the factory can be brought more in line with the cost effectiveness of other factories

if the defense of why the slow/7dps weapon warrants the cost...

your examples are a something on fire command with 0 micro.... or a 25m cost unit

okay, your 140m, 5BP builder lives slightly longer...

as stated, jumpbots are good in games when you can raid consistently. but in team games. they often just result in being able to hold a line, they struggle to push in

yes you can use cloaks to get your units closer.. but thats true for ALL factories

thats a rather large jump in logic

im not asking for just raw buffs.. im asking for the power weighting to be spread to more effective areas, mostly riot and arty roles being unfilled

im making comparisons between respective units to show that jumpbots seem to be weaker in comparison to cost effectiveness

as stated prior, lobster for amph takes the slot of artillery, but it also solves the NEED for it.

jumpbots lacks a proper riot, pyro is a great raider, but as a riot. its not very cost effective.. and juggles require micro and are quite slow to move around the map

im perfectly okay with some units taking a minor nerf if the power weighting is distributed to the gaps of the factory.

it being a very quirky factory, i understand that its impact in 1v1/teams is going to vary DRASTICALLY, and thats what i'd like to see smoothed out.

its rather annoying to be playing jumpbots in a team game and.. "oh, they went shieldbots and are porcing.... gotta plate".

i just want the factory to be more self reliant. not having a true arty makes pushing porc hell, especially if its under a shield... you have to plate to get something that can deal with that. AND the riot you might need to defend it.

i dont want to have to sparrow or plate every time i need to deal with a stinger