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Zero-K v1.1.1.1 & Bombard Commander
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A new commander has been added with model by CaptainBenz. The effect of the energy investment reimbursement system has been reduced. == Commanders == * New Bombard Commander * Battle Commander damage bonuses halved; removed artillery options. * Strike Commander range bonus replaced with speed bonus (same percentages). * New Rail Accelerator weapon mod for Gauss Rifle. * Integrated Radar Module cost 450 -> 300. == Overdrive Reimbursement == * Maximum repayment rate from 80% to 50%. * Energy source repayment factor from 150% to 100%. == Bugfixes == * Fix for lagmonitor transfers. * Probable fix for overdrive irregularities. * Fix Singularity reactor hitbox which could cause labhax. == Interface == * Changed tooltips for Attack and Fight to make sense for their new default hotkeys; F for attack ground and A for fight. This is in line with all other RTS which use A for attack move. * This change barely affects current players because hotkeys are only set to default upon a setting reset. |
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To celebrate this release, i've now renamed all my custom commanders into <medieval thing><commander> scheme! |
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Wow! I'm amazed my suggestion for the a-f key switch was implemented so quickly. Thanks for the constant stream of updates! |
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... but when I want to attack a cluster of units and drag a box/circle around them, with the new keybinds I now have to use the "F" key? Or have you managed to separate attack from attack-ground? I need to suck it up and set up a Recon Commander, apparently. |
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Pxtl you are not a new player so you don't have to do anything. The hotkeys have just been swapped for new configs. It is very simple. So box is F. |
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From now on I hate MauranKilom. |
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No, I know that... I just like to try and keep up with the UI changes anyways. |
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    Skasi nah better suggest to add a switch for the attack/fight keybind in settings ;)
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People can already change hotkeys. Defaults should make sense, ie J for Jump, M for Move, P for Patrol, R for Repair, S for Stop, E for Eat, F for Fight, A for Attack.. you get the point. |
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aww now need new com slot.. |
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A for attack move F for force attack |
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There's no way around conflicts in the a-f-topic. If you keep it the previous way, newbies will have a hard time getting used to the controls (which already happens enough in other places, say leftclicking the minimap doesn't work). Streamlining (at least) default hotkeys with other RTS will always be a good idea. If you just make a the hotkey for fight and f for attack then ofcourse it won't make sense, but the meaning of the command names doesn't change (i believe that's what happened, and it's in my eyes the most comfortable way for everyone). If you completely exchange fight and attack (that is, fight means attack ground and attack the previous fight or attack-move, a chance code-wise if you will) then current players will get messed up big time (although their hotkeys stay the same). They'd have to change the attack command to f and the fight command to a in order to have their play unaffacted. So for new players the hotkeys will make sense, but not for the current ones (and it would mean extra work). Edit: Oh, Licho found a nice way to make sense of it :D |
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Since existing players don't have their UI keys modified unless they re-install, it seems like there would be no huge issue, so long as most experienced players don't reinstall often. |
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While we are at it, could somebody update the commander guide wiki (http://zero-k.info/Wiki/CommanderGuide)? |
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And if I press "attack" and pick a target, what happens? It's still counter-intuitive, but in a different direction. |
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Even better: you press attack and drag. What does the red circle do? |
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why nerf the battle commander? |
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The change was done in order to make things easier for newbies. Consider the following scenarios (in the perspective of a newbie): - "A" for attackground: You want to attackmove your units against the enemy. But all your units attack the same patch of ground. Horribly frustrating, since your units get bashed into the dust without even harming the enemy. - "A" for attackmove: Attackmoving works as expected, but you can't target specific enemy units. But at least your units do something to harm the enemy. Actually, forceattack to target specific units is much more logical than attackmove on specific units. And if you get into more "advanced" tactics like focus firing, having to learn to use a different hotkey isn't all that bad. We won't be able to put both attackmove and focusfire on a single hotkey. However, the new solution is (as shown above) immediately less confusing/gamebreaking as the previous one. |
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Does the rail accelerator mod apply to the shock rifle? For the matter, do gauss rifle mods in general apply to the shock rifle? |
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I don't think so, Fireplace, because it's not a Gauss rifle anymore. It is "converted", i.e. changed into a new state. In my view it is meant to convey that the change is so fundamental that the old weapon effectively ceases to exist. |
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Imo those are the reasons to go back to old keys. |
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Breaking up the attack and bombard and fight commands into 3 separate commands (instead of the present 2) would be the most sensible thing for, imho... "fight" would sport the current behavior, "attack" would be "fight but if you click a unit or you drag it works as attack" and "bombard" would be always force-firing at ground regardless of what stands on the spot, and would give you a way to drag-bombard areas without fiddling with alt-keys and whatnot (see wolverine lines). Alternately you could completely combine "fight" and "attack target" into the attack command and leave the "force fire/bombard" on the f-key - but then you need little "alt" things to reconcile that both "attack everything in the selected area" and "customformations attack-move" are bound to the same command. Otherwise? It's "attack-move if I click ground, attack if I click a target" like in StarCraft. The drag behavior is the trick. But that kind of massive change wouldn't be as backwards-compatible for old players and might require engine changes. |
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Units don't Attack Move when fighting, Licho. They dodge, retreat to stay at range, etc. You can't tell me that retreating is the same as attacking. MauranKilom, there are plenty of games where A makes units attack ground. This is the reason why you have to ignore what other games do. They are all different. We have to make it the right way and that is making hotkeys as easy to guess as possible, which it is once you read "Fight". |
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current is fine, no changes required except an area attack (that is implemented without breaking current system) |
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Alt+A for area attack, 1v0ry. |
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Saw it for a while. Must've been fixing it if it was LV250 for a while, eh? Anyway, new ACU to upgrade my iPod ACU to an iPad ACU! |
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It was annoying for one unit to have DPS and HP (and have the oppurtunity to be mega-HP artillery), also known as the Sumo Problem. So we* made it more specialized; it wasn't our intent to nerf it per se, but that's how it turned out. Could give it HP buff (or autoheal buff, which Sphiloth originally proposed for Strike Comm) to compensate if needed. *we being me and Sak |
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great, now that just leaves the Sumo (which is OP btw) |
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Strike com sux now without the range bonus, while the 10% speed bonus it gets on level 5 is barely noticable if at all. On the other hand 30% range bonus on level 5 Bombard Com seems a little OP. |
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Do range upgrades even decrease accuracy? |
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Nope, why would they? I fully expect my 225% range beamlaser comm to perfectly snipe gnats and ticks at max range. |
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dosent shogun lose accuraty at range |
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I don't think anyone actually presses attack and picks a target, because the default action is attack, so pressing the button is redundant. The only time you'd want to do this is when you want to attack an ally, where 'force fire' makes way more sense. I don't know that people use attack and drag that much either, I generally just use an enemy unit as my mid point, but I can see cases where you might want to do this. As for minimap, Muran is wrong there, our way is vastly superior. You use the same buttons for the minimap as you do the main screen (mid button is camera), which makes sense since the minimap is just a zoomed out view. I've seen people attack ground when trying to fight. I'd also like to take a look at other games default zoom direction (this always catches me up where I find myself zooming the wrong way in Zero-K). Another thing that's always bothered me is that when you are moving a unit, the left mouse button selects/cancels selection and the right mouse button orders, while when you are building the left mouse button orders and the right mouse button selects/cancels (I remember my brother complaining about constantly cancelling his building orders by mistake and vaguely remember doing the same thing myself when I first started). |
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Buildings are placed with the left mouse button in almost all RTS. It is consistent with non-context related commands. To create a patrol I select the patrol command and left click to place it, right click cancels. |
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Attack + alt + drag: Napalm Bombers Attack + drag: 200-300 Avengers |
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Westwood style. But there is no Westwood anymore, so no worries. Starcraft, the survivor and the fittest, does the same as ta/zk/spring - lmb for selection and specific stuff, right for contextual order.
It seems, Spring is one of those games. I mean, when i tried playing ZK on Windows with ZKL, i was startled by the suddenly inverse zoom.
Any high-priority fast targets anyway. Like, that roach that runs into your units while they are occupied shooting a solar. If you try to rightclick it, you're toast. |
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I see your point. That's a very good reason to use that feature. |
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   Saktoth - I use the attack+drag command with defending against raiders often - attack + drag is less prone to "missing" when I'm giving a target-selecting order. Naked attack is more likely to be "oops, attack ground" because I missed a fast-moving unit, and naked rclick might be a move instead of atatcking the target. Best to play it safe and drag a box.
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Uh. Sure, catapult at max range should be just as accurate as at min range too! If bad accuracy is multiplied with range then lasers would be super accurate at any range, nub. |
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Uh-oh, somebody is mixing up accuracy and distribution, tsk tsk. |
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Stop being silly. "Distribution" is when nubs get all the metal. "Accuracy" is when you hit or miss. |
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Lol... never even knew how to make that sumo attack my detriment untill I saw this thread Anyway, this is suddenly a tactics thread |
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Fundamentally, treating "10% range" as equal value as "10% speed" or "10% firepower" is not right. 10% range buff is huge change in the combat potential of a unit. 10% firepower buff will rarely change the outcome of a battle. |
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Fine! Spread. Hit-or-miss can depend on a lot of factors besides spread, like having your projectile be a slow-motion fireball that takes half a minute to reach target, or shooting into wrong direction altogether. |
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A mi parecer, debe seguir usándose la forma anterior F=Fight y A=Attack. Este juego Zero-K es una obra de arte y no debe modificar su esencia tan ligeramente por complacer a unos pocos o muchos que vienen de otros juegos RTS. El tema es la identidad, los seguidores actuales de Zero-K están acostumbrados desde hace mucho con la manera anterior, cambiar ese estilo por tratar de hacerse similar a los demás RTS significaría perder el carácter propio. En mi caso vengo de jugar los RTS desde el patriarca "Dune" luego muchos otros. Antes de Zero-K jugaba Red Alert 2 y la primera vez que lo jugué me pareció extraordinario, un juego maduro y con posibilidades de jugabilidad mucho mayores que RA2 (los que conocen este juego sabrán que hay muchas cosas que son diferentes con respecto a los atajos de teclado); fue duro el cambio sin embargo no requiere de mucho tiempo adaptarse al estilo e identidad de Zero-K. En todo caso, ruego puedan tomar las decisiones que afecten la identidad del juego con más calma. (TRANSLATE OF GOOGLE) In my view, should continue to be used in the above manner F = Fight and A = Attack. This game Zero-K is a work of art and should not change its essence so slightly to please a few or many who come from other RTS games. The theme is identity, current followers Zero-K are long accustomed to the old way, change the style to try to be like other RTS mean losing one's character. In my case I come to play the RTS from the patriarch "Dune" then many others. Zero-K Before playing Red Alert 2 and the first time I played I found extraordinary, a mature game and gameplay possibilities far greater than RA2 (those who know the game know that there are many things that are different with respect to keyboard shortcuts), was tough but change does not require much time to adjust to the style and identity of Zero-K. In any case, I pray they can make decisions that affect the identity of the game a little easier. |
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  satowar: I see your point, but ZK wants/needs to grow. Because it's cool if the veteran players have their game with character, but without new players, the game will eventually die out. And nobody wants that...
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This change does exactly 0% to make ZK bigger. |
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To be fair, I didn't quit because I had to learn the keyboard shortcuts. If anything having fight on F helped make it clear that it wasn't just "attack move" from other RTSs, which tends to be a very basic "move here, stand still and shoot stuff if it's on the way". Calling it fight made it stand out as something unique to Zero-K, which things like auto-skirm and auto-juke are. |
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I still don't see the exact problem people have with this change... Nobody has to change any of his settings... |
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It will cause confusion because you will never know if you should tell newbie to "press F for Fight" or "press A for Attack-Move", since you can't know if the newbie has settings from before or after the change. |
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...when did you last have to tell a newbie how to attack? |
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I frequently had to tell them to use Fight order with their skirmishers or Slashers. |
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This is a valid point. Fight and Attack Move are semantically and functionally different. Fight does things that Attack Move doesn't. Besides autoskirm and autoswarm as mentioned by   DroopyTheDog, Fight is also repair allies/reclaim wrecks for constructors, and possibly even more things i'm missing.An SCV on Attack Move will NOT skirm, swarm, repair or harvest. |
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The constructor thing is a valid point. I didn't have that in mind. However, fight isn't exactly what constructors do either, so giving them a fight order to do whatever they want isn't exactly logical either. And previous fight command on commander leaves you at a loss what he will do. Attack? Skirmish? Repair? Reclaim? Maybe multiple of those? The change doesn't solve that, but it doesn't make it anymore confusing than before. |
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Constructors can contribute to outcome of battle by healing combat units midfight. I'd count this as fighting. Starcraft1 medics do that. I kinda wish it didn't apply to reclaim though. F-ordered commander stopping to eat trees always felt wrong and weird to me. The rest can (and in ideal case already are) be solved with regard to context. Enemy units sighted? Kill them in an effective way (using skirm if you got longer guns, or swarm if they are inaccurate). No gun or no enemies, but wounded allies and you got repair kit? Heal them. No enemies and nothing to heal? Advance and follow. |
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You still have to tell your nanotowers at home to fight the ground so they get going... |
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Actually i think a good widget sets them on "patrol". Though, fighting ground as opposed to attacking ground to heal nearby units are on equal terms of hilarity, i agree :D |
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I tried those autoeco widgets and now find my units running around and not doing anything i wanted... Autopatrol on caretakers probably wasn't the reason, but somehow i refrain from using widgets that mess with my con commands... Especially since i'm positive i turned those widgets off again, and it sometimes still spooks in my unit AI D: |
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Yeah ZK is full of ghosts.. they are everywhere! |
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Just tell them to "Attack-Move" their skirmishers, they can look on the UI and find hotkey. This has not come up for me because units on maneuver will be smart if idle or with an attack command. |
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I agree with satowar.
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Yeah, I agree also. I came from a predominantly starcraft background before spring but not only did I learn the attack/fight notation quickly, I thought it superior. But I'm not really married to it. Perhaps the icon should be red now though, or something like that. It doesn't really make sense for attack (red) + move (green) to be blue. The ui line would also need to have its color changed accordingly. |
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I think it's fine as is. The icon shares it's shape with move and colour with patrol. It is mostly important that things have different colours so red would not work well because attacking ground is quite different. |
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Red + Green = Yellow? For both fight and patrol then? That could be helpful because guard is using blue. Also, if area-attack is still alt+a by default, it should probably be changed to alt+f, as it is closer still to force-fire than attack move. |
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Nevermind, I'm stupid, there really isn't an attack order now because it's force fire. Ok, so if we wanted to use starcraft conventions, it would be: attack/attack-move = red patrol = blue move = green So maybe it should stay along those lines, with force fire as yellow or something else. Perhaps attack-move should be lua'd to behave like standard attack-move commands, namely attack if given on a unit and attack-move if given on ground. |
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You could rename attackmove to "action" or "automatic action" or similar :D That would make sense with the builders and the fighters. |
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personally i'm not agreeing whit the damage nerf on battle commander, because it is already a slow short range unit,and his only ability lays in high damage per second. Now, it's completely useless. I agree instead with the removal of his artillery capabilities. |
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"Changed tooltips for Attack and Fight to make sense for their new default hotkeys; F for attack ground and A for fight." o_O One more reason to keep a backup of my zero-k settings very carefully. This change is not very sensible imo. Fight = F, Attack = A ( + drag) makes more sense to me. Anyway, no reason to change it. "but without new players, the game will eventually die out. And nobody wants that... " - " This change does exactly 0% to make ZK bigger. " Yea, it's nonsense. |
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Whichever nub made this silly commit should update the manual accordingly. Keep in mind that some newbies still have old keys when doing this. |
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Wait, so we've completely *lost* the attack unit command? |
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  [I]burp: I couldn't disagree more. Maybe it's a long time since you got into the game. But you know: You never get a second chance to make a first impression.Compare these situations for a first time player who is used to using a for making his units attack: a = old fight: "Wow, my units kite automatically, dodge unguided missiles and micro themselves." -> Bonus points for ZK. a = attack ground: "FFS, why are my units not attacking the enemy? Why don't they attackmove?" -> Instant frustration. Now i can't judge the influence this has, all i can say is that it was weird to get into for me. And if you had read this thread first you'd have found some in-depths discussions on the topics you mentioned. Edit: No, we didn't lose anything. We only swapped the a and f hotkeys for new players, nothing more. If you don't reset your settings it won't affect you at all. So i don't know what people are complaining about. |
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WELP, I GOTTA MIGRATE TO THE BOMBARD IT APPEARS |
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MauranKilom: I couldn't disagree even more than you disagree with me. Newbies will probably just move their units. I very often see people telling newbies and even experienced players to use fight command instead of just moving. They do not use attack or fight command at all. You will learn about attack and fight commands after you just move units. After all units still fight when you move them. This is very common in RTS. In chat I have just learned that there are some awkward RTS games where units can't fire when you move them. |
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About unnecessary and thus harmful increase in semantic complexity of this new nomenclature that obscures the true behaviour of fight and attack in ZK. At best, it is useless, at worst, you have the increased clutter of useless alien terminology actively obstruct your attempts to explain the game. For example: by breaking all references to Fight which nobody will ever bother updating, which in turn makes your manual deprecated, misleading, and forces you to mention an extra caveat when telling people to read it. Oldschoolers getting to use their old keys is irrelevant here. Your argument is invalid. |
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wait f is no longer fight? WHAT THE FUUUUUUU.... i swear are you retards that was so logical and buitifull f=fight a=attack s=stop w=wait r=repair LOGICAL NOW f=attack (what the shiiiiiiiii....) a=fighte (!@#$@^*#) the future?: a=fight f=attack v=repair x=wait q=stop (yes i have seen these commands bound to those keys...) i do not car what other rts with really crap UI use for key bindings spring has best key setup and UI, it is the standard, you dont need to pander to retards |
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^^ Lolwutrage |
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RAAAAAGE revert it nao! |
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^^^^^ I CAN'T STOP LAUGHING |
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Kindergarten. Actually F for fight or whatever simply doesnt matter. All hotkeys should be rebinded near hand for example G for guard and P for patrol is total nonsense, because P is so far away from hand and Guard is useless anyway I replaced G with patrol its much more useful that way. So seriously stop being babies, it should be comfortable and those letters doesnt matter. |
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F is near hand, so is A YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID also they didnt relocat, the swaped the 2 keys around for a more stupid and illogical setup |
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Most people are being stupid (especially ddabaeqepp).
But it had to be reverted for different reasons. Firstly the manuals need updating and nobody knows the extent/can't be bothered. But more importantly the ingame menu messes some things around such that changing uikey.txt causes problems. |
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You made the mistake of assuming that all RTS games use A for attack move. There must be RTS games which use the A = Attack Ground or Attack Move != A terminology. A lot of people - including ddabaeqepp - already said that other games have to be ignored. People play ZK or any Spring mod because they are not happy with other RTS games. The most prominent feature of Spring is its powerful interface. It is ahead of any commercial RTS game I can think of. |
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I love how this changed from Bombard Com discussion to a fight about controls very quickly. |
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There never was a "discussion" about bombard commander in the first place... |
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boob com is a gimmick unit, noone really cares stupid controlls are the most annoying thing in the universe, i hate having to edit controll layout to fix stupid crap like fight comand being on [any leter but F] and attack command being one [any leter but A] othere examples: fps games: shift alt ctr E Q F G[shoul allways be run, crouch, prone, action key, quick weapon, special/nades] rts games: wasdf [wait attack stop fight](depending on what comands the game actualy has) racing/air: wasdqe shift ctrl space(motion controlls hand break boost fire) its amazing how often the controll layout is aquard and illogical(inverted axies, the zxcvbnthy, tab keys...) |
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Let's discuss the commander now, then! |
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noone realy cares about com though... |
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>A = Attack Move terminology. Yep, jumped into Dota 2 a couple weeks ago. Without ever having played it, I assumed that A was attack move, and I was right. SC2 trained me well. |
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ive allways had a as atack ground/supression fire :D age of empires, and every othere real RTS game trained me well bow before the colective might of all the live projectile simulating games of all time... |
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Original Dota was on war3 engine, which had the blizzard nomenclature of a-move. |
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:D back in times of old over 10 YEARS AGO! we did not have the attack move command thuse the GODS OF KEYBINDING in their INFINITE WISEASSNESS bound the ATTACK KEY to THE LETER A on the qwerty keyboard layout AND IT WAS GOOD then the ASS HOLES from blizzard came along and for some UNFATHOMABLE REASON bound attack move(the retards didnt know its usualy called the FIGHT command) TO THE LETER A go figure... history lesson (yes i know blizzard are not the first to script attack move, yes i know the bound BOTH attack target and attack move TO THE A KEY, yes i know their games have no physics engine to speak of, and have no such thing as splash damage, and yes you are stupid for folowing their lead ^.^) |
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I agree with "a" for "attack" because it make absolute sense. Is this swapping of "a" into "f" just to make newbies use "fight" instead of "attack"? IMO they do know "f"="fight" command, just that they have to decide when to use it. I for one use "fight" only for arty, NOT because I am confused about "fight" as "attack", don't mess with my brain! Isn't swapping "a" with "f" just make it more confusing?? Is this swapping for personal keybinding? Why not veteran set own keybinding? The UI support custom keybinding right? |
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i really dont thing ANY vet uses A for fight, the A key position is clumbersome to press quickly |
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I would've left this uncommented for now (since i would just be repeating myself), but you're contradicting yourself right there that the a key is cumbersome to press when you have your ring finger right on it! Btw i love how you guys make poor allegations about the reasons of this change when it is all written in this thread. Yes, i know how to change hotkeys. It doesn't even have a freaking influence on veteran players themselves, so why are you making that up xponen? I'll point it out one last time (and whoever doesn't read this for the fifth time): I shared my feedback on how having to use f for attackmove was unfamiliar, uncomforting and frustrating for me as a newbie of a certain background (blizzard games, that is). Working on the assumption that players of similar background would have the same problem, i asked carefully what the devs thought of this. I did not intend an instant change. So would you please calm freaking down and stop throwing random accusations? |
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ring finger has the least power output on the hand(its actualy weaker then your pinky stupid muscle setup :D)... it actualy takes less effort to thig the f cause you use the power output of the forearm rather then just the ring finger |
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Is this seriously your point? If it's as cumbersome as you make it, why is it part of basically every single game? You might have heard (right above you) that a is used more than f... So please, stop right there and think of something better. And again, naming a "attackmove" and f "force attack" would make the same amount of sense as "attack" for a and "fight" for f. |
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its part of the wasd key binding for movment in fps/piloting games an alterantive of uhjk, qwesaz(4 directional speed controll) awsdqefr(roll and speed controll), uilhnm(6 directional), jilk, are also available, its the left hand alternative to the up,down,right,left, of the 8642(7913 8directional) controll scheme... also there is the even more insane controll scheme using the whole number pad for left handed players... the rts controll scheme is fairly recent, used to be the direction keys+a mish mash of keyboard controlls for the 9000 available comands you could use (even back the A was for ATTACK/ATTACK AT POINT) i thought evryone knew this... |
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According to this, you expect no players of recent background but only players that haven't played for 10 years... right? And my point was not about the a or wasd key(s), my point was that each of those controls you listed uses the ring finger (and usually in an equally important role as the forefinger). Was i that unclear? |
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:P yes they all use the ring finger they also use the other 4 fingers... most rely on the other 4 fingers more then the ring finger... :D if your talking about the wasd based key bind its actualy covering pinky: shift ctrl (caps tab (not common)) ring: q a z 1 middle: w s x 2 3 index: e d f g r t c 4 5 thumb: space alt c v b n g normaly the index is used for all the functional keys the thumb is used for special commands or things you may need to hold down awsd for motion controll the ring finger for commands that are only used rarely (non time essential) and the pinky is responsible for controlling things to augment motion its not based on "experiance" but rather what is easiest to do and most efficient and functional for experianced the player to use (yes controll schemes opinion of newbs is "lear2controll shit nub") |
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The naming is a bit more cumbersome. It can stay, but it needs to be more completely done. If it is supposed to be like other RTS, it should look and act like other RTS. |
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I don't feel like we're getting anywhere here. We could continue talking about keyboard layouts, the evolution of games etc., but it ultimately won't have any benefit. Going back to the initial complaints you had: "Spring has best UI evar (lol) and doesn't need to streamline" -> Nobody changed your ui. But look up the player numbers of current RTS and then ask yourself if ZK could use new players. If you have the chance to give players a smoother start, why not use it? "Names don't make sense" -> Ofcourse the current names don't make sense. But "attackmove" and "force attack" do. So there's nothing "illogical" here. |
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to get new players on zk we eithere need to place it on steam, or advertize... changing attack to f and fight to a isnt going to magicly sumon up 2000 more players... also while were on the point: attack move was called attack move because that is ilteraly all it did, it moved your units till it got anything into its range, then it attacked it the fight command really isnt attack move, it is closer to a "ceed unit controll to ai" command, which is the evil great great grandchild of attack move |
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Is that actually true ddaba? Then that's why so many AoS maps used W for passive abilities that you don't have to click when using QWER keys. |
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no idea what AoS you are refering to, but yea the ring finger is weak, its technicaly designed to be used together with the middle and pinky for grip, thats all
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'Attack this location' makes sense. 'Fight to this location' makes sense. 'Force-fire on this location' makes sense. 'Attack-move to this location' is the only one that doesn't really make sense, outside of Blizzard land. Actually, the nomenclature 'attack-move' isn't even really a thing in Starcraft. It is simply a description of the behavior that happens when you give an attack move on a location instead of a unit. On the other hand, it has dispersed itself in much of RTS culture that most everyone will still understand what it means. Still though, it is supposed to be a contextual behavior of an attack command, and not a command all unto itself. |
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thats why i said Fight comand should actualy be "ceed cunit controll to ai" but thats clumbersome so fight describes is consisely btw  :D thats how badass your pinky is it has 2 muscles for aditional mobility ontop of its normal extensor/flexor muscles |
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Okay, lets say we happen to teleport into a reality that use Fight as "Attack", now should we reprogram Fight to also allow 'area attack selection'? Okay, if Fight could do area-selection... then what does 'area attack "Attack"' do? maybe it mean scatter attack on ground? OMG the possibility of alternate reality! I srsly recommend this to be investigated ASAP. Either give area-selection to Fight & area scatter attack for Attack, or no key swap with Attack, pls |
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Attack does not have to work exactly the same as other games. Here is the reason for the change: * People used to pressing A then clicking as their standard move order will not have stupid units. * The change affects absolutely nobody else. |
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(GOOGLE TRANSLATE) MauranKilom, insist that this is an issue of identity. Leaving the default keybindings as bad walk your suggestion. Your point is that the change will encourage new players coming from SC and they will find familiarity in the keyboard shortcuts and so it will be easier to play. ZK is, in my opinion, highly configurable. As you propose that skilled players will not problem to change the keyboard shortcuts you like, just as I say that any new player will be very accessible to change the configuration of the keyboard shortcuts. In the worst case, if you also find it tedious to top most here is always ready to provide information. Essentially your proposal is "convenience" things the new player and thus have increasingly ZK followers. If that was the intention of the developers then die at the end of the race players, at first, had the joy of being a great game like this. ZK future would become increasingly simpleton, more facile, more commercial and light, full of many people would be simplistic and glib, then in his appetite for things require facilismo always easy, especially in auto and pure special effects. ZK never be what it used to be and as always, would be transformed. Those who had, in the world of RTS, an alternative and excellent in this game would disappear. I think if I am later that ZK is another SC just with different clothes, then I will leave forever. MauranKilom, look no ease, seeking complexity because therein lies the beauty of being alive. Later, perhaps ZK continue with few followers but it is always a joy to play a little game. Now, realistically, does not have many followers ZK not because it is very difficult to play but because it makes for good press. I think it is a wonderful game ZK RTS, we owe it to the excellence of intelligent guess creators and developers are an extraordinary team. These always make changes that give us continuous improvement. Welcome as long as it comes from your own creative identity, I have great confidence in them and if we are aiming in the same direction we collaborate successful. No walk in haste, ZK will have many followers, boys patience, patience. ----------- MauranKilom, insisto que esto es un tema de identidad. Si se deja la configuración de teclas por defecto según tu sugerencia andamos mal. Tu punto es que el cambio favorecerá a los nuevos jugadores que vienen de SC ya que encontrarán familiaridad en los atajos de teclado y así les será más fácil poder jugar. ZK es, a mi parecer, altamente configurable. Así como tú propones que a los jugadores expertos no les será problema poder cambiar los atajos de teclado a su gusto, de la misma manera te digo que a cualquier jugador nuevo les será muy accesible cambiar la configuración de los atajos de teclado. En el peor de los casos, si igualmente se les hace tedioso al inicio aquí la mayoría siempre está presto a brindar información. En esencia tu propuesta es "facilitarle" las cosas al nuevo jugador y que de esa manera ZK tenga cada vez más seguidores. Si esa fuera la intención de los desarrolladores entonces al final moriríamos la raza de jugadores que, en un inicio, tuvieron la alegría de encontrarse un juegazo como este. En el futuro ZK se volvería cada vez más simplón, más facilón, más comercial y claro, estaría lleno de mucha gente simplona y facilona, entonces en su apetito de facilismo siempre exigirán cosas fáciles, todo en automático y puros efectos especiales. ZK nunca más sería lo que solía ser y como siempre sucede, se transformaría. Aquellos que teníamos, en el mundo de los RTS, una alternativa diferente y excelente en este juego desapareceríamos. Pienso que si mañana más tarde veo que ZK es otro SC solo que con diferente vestido, entonces lo dejaré para siempre. MauranKilom, no busques facilidad, busca complejidad porque allí radica la hermosura de sentirse vivo. Más adelante, quizá ZK continúe con pocos seguidores pero siempre será una dicha jugarse una partidita. Ahora, siendo realistas, ZK no tiene muchos seguidores no porque sea muy complicado jugarlo sino porque no tiene buena publicidad. Creo que ZK es un maravilloso juego RTS, se lo debemos a la excelencia de los inteligentes creadores y desarrolladores que supongo son un equipo extraordinario. Estos siempre hacen cambios que nos brindan un continuo mejoramiento. Bienvenido sea siempre y cuando venga de su propia identidad creativa, confío mucho en ellos y si nosotros apuntamos en ese mismo sentido podremos colaborar de forma acertada. No anden con prisa, ZK llegará a tener muchos seguidores, paciencia muchachos, paciencia. |
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Exactly.
Neither new players nor old players have to change any settings with the new a-f-thing. I don't see your point here. ZK is not SC in new clothes and never will be. In fact, i find it extremely exaggerated that changing one hotkey to a more familiar layout means ZK loses all of its identity. And i don't plan on streamlining the entire game, i just explained how for me personally as a new player it was difficult and could have been easier. You keep explaining how you rather have a small community rather than being like starcraft. What if i tell you: You can make stuff easier for new players and still be different! And complexity in the sense of having different hotkeys... I mean, seriously? TL;DR: ZK doesn't lose identity or creativity by swapping 2 hotkeys. Seriously. |
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Does lose semantic cohesion instead. See the 'updating manual' reference. See also lack of separate attack/attackmove commands in SC, and their complete lack of attack ground as well. See 'forceattack' as proposed in this thread still not allowing you to shoot at your own units, allies, or wreckages - what's "force" about that? |
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I don't claim that my idea is a perfect solution. I also hadn't thought of the area attack stuff. Which is why i carefully suggested the idea. I don't want to place any blame on the devs, it just so happens that GoogleFrog apparently agreed so much to it that he changed this instantly. Now, i have no problem with this being reverted (or not getting it implemented in the first place). I'd have been fine with discussing it first, which is what i'm trying to do here (read: i don't insist on having this implemented, but i will keep defending the idea behind this against (in my eyes) unjustified accusations). So could we talk about this as a suggestion/idea in order to make ZK better, and not something everybody has to hate about as much as possible so it gets reverted (which it already got)? If you rage about this, newer players will keep their voice down and we only get the veterans talking. If we brainstorm how do improve this, we might get somewhere (and get feedback from new as well as old players). |
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Please note that this change was completely reverted few days ago. F is fight and A is attack again. Reasons were technical - keybindings were switching randomly in the middle of game for some people. |
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Yay! now let this war end due to a bug, which has more power in persuading then anyone here will ever have! |
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the god of keybinding was against this foolisheness thus it was smited by the lightning bolt of bugs |
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Yay Licho the Glaive! |
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How dumb and stupid do we expect people to be? Do you think they turn down from the game because with "a" a unit attacks the ground, thinking they could not attack other units properly? They will just see within seconds that units fire while moving. They can configure the keys if they want… that is what we should tell them. Zero-K and Spring are flexible! I demand that the new default "a" is configured to be the normal move command. That would make more sense following your "attack move" arguments than switching a and f. Maybe I need to find some people that whine how uncomfortable Zero-K is not from point of view of a Starcraft player but from C&C or something else. Maybe we should make different downloads with different presets: "Download Zero-K Starcraft edition here" with all keys configured as closely as in Starcraft. If you additionally have Starcraft installed, Zero-K will automatically use as many graphics as possible from it! |
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LOL Anyway, I never use hotkeys except X.C.V.B. |
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Actually, I think it would be awesome to have something more similar to SC2's grid layout, as it makes all hotkeys very convenient for one hand. It also makes learning hotkeys far easier, as the ingame gui simply lines up with your keyboard. This exists for build menu already but needs to be done for commands and toggles also.
It might be interesting to note that SC2 grid hotkeys are quite popular, and use 'T' for attack/atttack-move. So no matter what you do, you will be drowning in someone's tears. |
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i complain that the game is uncomfortable from the point of view of the DF gamer there are too few commands, ITS FAR TO USER FRIENDLY FOR MY TASTES and dont get me started on the learning curve... its so shalow theres no barbed wire on the top or armed guards... where are the landmines, where are the cattrops, where it the giant concrete wall of learning  i mean look at the df comand list... ita takes up 5 pages when you print it out XD zk needs more commands |
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Someone needs to draw learning curves for RTS:
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DF is no MMORPG. |
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it is, but your players are actualy all controlled by the evil ai dwarf god that runs on a magma computer that spans the whole of the df map |
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  Burp: I've actually been thinking about a similar suggestion: Make key presets available (like different cameras) and you can chose the one you feel familiar with.Btw, basically everybody in this thread has been whining about the idea. We don't need more of that, everybody got the point. |
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Yes. |
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We should be glad if that is true. It already takes a lot of time to teach players how to play. Teaching openness is hard, I'd rather have parents and friends do that. |
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I finally have Bombardy |
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In C&C general you have to press G to make attack move. But this doesn't deter people from playing C&C IMO. |
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if you play generals install contra mod!!!! tiberium essence mod for tiberium wars is lovely too!! |
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  OldGhostStalker:You rezzed a 2-3 month old thread. That is like spaming on the active-threads page. |
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lol kitty |
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on engine board, this is called "backseat moderation" and you get kicked in nuts for doing it :P |
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I was offline in these months. i fell escused. also i want a rezz medal for resuming this thread. |