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Zero-K v1.1.1.1 & Bombard Commander


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134 posts, 5263 views
AUrankAdminGoogleFrog
21 months ago

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A new commander has been added with model by CaptainBenz. The effect of the energy investment reimbursement system has been reduced.

== Commanders ==

* New Bombard Commander
* Battle Commander damage bonuses halved; removed artillery options.
* Strike Commander range bonus replaced with speed bonus (same percentages).
* New Rail Accelerator weapon mod for Gauss Rifle.
* Integrated Radar Module cost 450 -> 300.

== Overdrive Reimbursement ==

* Maximum repayment rate from 80% to 50%.
* Energy source repayment factor from 150% to 100%.

== Bugfixes ==

* Fix for lagmonitor transfers.
* Probable fix for overdrive irregularities.
* Fix Singularity reactor hitbox which could cause labhax.

== Interface ==

* Changed tooltips for Attack and Fight to make sense for their new default hotkeys; F for attack ground and A for fight. This is in line with all other RTS which use A for attack move.
* This change barely affects current players because hotkeys are only set to default upon a setting reset.
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EErankAdminAnarchid
21 months ago

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To celebrate this release, i've now renamed all my custom commanders into <medieval thing><commander> scheme!
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DErankSoldierTheEloIsALie
21 months ago

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Wow! I'm amazed my suggestion for the a-f key switch was implemented so quickly.

Thanks for the constant stream of updates!
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CArankAdminPxtl
21 months ago
... but when I want to attack a cluster of units and drag a box/circle around them, with the new keybinds I now have to use the "F" key? Or have you managed to separate attack from attack-ground?

I need to suck it up and set up a Recon Commander, apparently.
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AUrankAdminGoogleFrog
21 months ago

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Pxtl you are not a new player so you don't have to do anything.

The hotkeys have just been swapped for new configs. It is very simple. So box is F.
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ATrankNapoleonSkasi
21 months ago


From now on I hate MauranKilom.
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CArankAdminPxtl
21 months ago
No, I know that... I just like to try and keep up with the UI changes anyways.
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DErankDudeLogikfreak
21 months ago
ATrankNapoleonSkasi nah better suggest to add a switch for the attack/fight keybind in settings ;)
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ATrankNapoleonSkasi
21 months ago
(edited 21 months ago)



People can already change hotkeys. Defaults should make sense, ie J for Jump, M for Move, P for Patrol, R for Repair, S for Stop, E for Eat, F for Fight, A for Attack.. you get the point.
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FIrankDude[ffc]killer
21 months ago
aww now need new com slot..
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CZrankAdminLicho
21 months ago


A for attack move
F for force attack
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DErankSoldierTheEloIsALie
21 months ago
(edited 21 months ago)


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There's no way around conflicts in the a-f-topic.

If you keep it the previous way, newbies will have a hard time getting used to the controls (which already happens enough in other places, say leftclicking the minimap doesn't work). Streamlining (at least) default hotkeys with other RTS will always be a good idea.

If you just make a the hotkey for fight and f for attack then ofcourse it won't make sense, but the meaning of the command names doesn't change (i believe that's what happened, and it's in my eyes the most comfortable way for everyone).

If you completely exchange fight and attack (that is, fight means attack ground and attack the previous fight or attack-move, a chance code-wise if you will) then current players will get messed up big time (although their hotkeys stay the same). They'd have to change the attack command to f and the fight command to a in order to have their play unaffacted. So for new players the hotkeys will make sense, but not for the current ones (and it would mean extra work).

Edit: Oh, Licho found a nice way to make sense of it :D
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CArankAdminShadowfury333
21 months ago

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Since existing players don't have their UI keys modified unless they re-install, it seems like there would be no huge issue, so long as most experienced players don't reinstall often.
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DErankSoldierTheEloIsALie
21 months ago

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While we are at it, could somebody update the commander guide wiki (http://zero-k.info/Wiki/CommanderGuide)?
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CArankAdminPxtl
21 months ago
And if I press "attack" and pick a target, what happens?

It's still counter-intuitive, but in a different direction.
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EErankAdminAnarchid
21 months ago

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quote:
And if I press "attack" and pick a target, what happens?

Even better: you press attack and drag. What does the red circle do?
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GBrankSoldier[GBC]1v0ry_k1ng
21 months ago

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why nerf the battle commander?
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DErankSoldierTheEloIsALie
21 months ago
(edited 21 months ago)


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The change was done in order to make things easier for newbies. Consider the following scenarios (in the perspective of a newbie):

- "A" for attackground: You want to attackmove your units against the enemy. But all your units attack the same patch of ground. Horribly frustrating, since your units get bashed into the dust without even harming the enemy.
- "A" for attackmove: Attackmoving works as expected, but you can't target specific enemy units. But at least your units do something to harm the enemy.

Actually, forceattack to target specific units is much more logical than attackmove on specific units. And if you get into more "advanced" tactics like focus firing, having to learn to use a different hotkey isn't all that bad.

We won't be able to put both attackmove and focusfire on a single hotkey. However, the new solution is (as shown above) immediately less confusing/gamebreaking as the previous one.
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USrankNapoleonFireplace
21 months ago
Does the rail accelerator mod apply to the shock rifle? For the matter, do gauss rifle mods in general apply to the shock rifle?
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FIrankDudeAlcur
21 months ago
I don't think so, Fireplace, because it's not a Gauss rifle anymore. It is "converted", i.e. changed into a new state. In my view it is meant to convey that the change is so fundamental that the old weapon effectively ceases to exist.
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CZrankAdminLicho
21 months ago


quote:


quote:
And if I press "attack" and pick a target, what happens?

Even better: you press attack and drag. What does the red circle do?



Imo those are the reasons to go back to old keys.
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CArankAdminPxtl
21 months ago
(edited 21 months ago)

Breaking up the attack and bombard and fight commands into 3 separate commands (instead of the present 2) would be the most sensible thing for, imho... "fight" would sport the current behavior, "attack" would be "fight but if you click a unit or you drag it works as attack" and "bombard" would be always force-firing at ground regardless of what stands on the spot, and would give you a way to drag-bombard areas without fiddling with alt-keys and whatnot (see wolverine lines).

Alternately you could completely combine "fight" and "attack target" into the attack command and leave the "force fire/bombard" on the f-key - but then you need little "alt" things to reconcile that both "attack everything in the selected area" and "customformations attack-move" are bound to the same command. Otherwise? It's "attack-move if I click ground, attack if I click a target" like in StarCraft. The drag behavior is the trick.

But that kind of massive change wouldn't be as backwards-compatible for old players and might require engine changes.
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ATrankNapoleonSkasi
21 months ago
(edited 21 months ago)



Units don't Attack Move when fighting, Licho. They dodge, retreat to stay at range, etc. You can't tell me that retreating is the same as attacking.

MauranKilom, there are plenty of games where A makes units attack ground. This is the reason why you have to ignore what other games do. They are all different. We have to make it the right way and that is making hotkeys as easy to guess as possible, which it is once you read "Fight".
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GBrankSoldier[GBC]1v0ry_k1ng
21 months ago

Donator star
current is fine, no changes required except an area attack (that is implemented without breaking current system)
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ATrankNapoleonSkasi
21 months ago


Alt+A for area attack, 1v0ry.
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USrankNewbieDerpyTheGreat
21 months ago
Saw it for a while. Must've been fixing it if it was LV250 for a while, eh? Anyway, new ACU to upgrade my iPod ACU to an iPad ACU!
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MYrankAdminKingRaptor
21 months ago
(edited 21 months ago)


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quote:
why nerf the battle commander?

It was annoying for one unit to have DPS and HP (and have the oppurtunity to be mega-HP artillery), also known as the Sumo Problem. So we* made it more specialized; it wasn't our intent to nerf it per se, but that's how it turned out.

Could give it HP buff (or autoheal buff, which Sphiloth originally proposed for Strike Comm) to compensate if needed.

*we being me and Sak
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GBrankSoldier[GBC]1v0ry_k1ng
21 months ago

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great, now that just leaves the Sumo (which is OP btw)
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PLrankAdminRafal[ZK]
21 months ago
Strike com sux now without the range bonus, while the 10% speed bonus it gets on level 5 is barely noticable if at all.
On the other hand 30% range bonus on level 5 Bombard Com seems a little OP.
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ATrankNapoleonSkasi
21 months ago


Do range upgrades even decrease accuracy?
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EErankAdminAnarchid
21 months ago

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quote:
Do range upgrades even decrease accuracy?

Nope, why would they? I fully expect my 225% range beamlaser comm to perfectly snipe gnats and ticks at max range.
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FIrankDude[ffc]killer
21 months ago
dosent shogun lose accuraty at range
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AUrankAdminSaktoth
21 months ago

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I don't think anyone actually presses attack and picks a target, because the default action is attack, so pressing the button is redundant. The only time you'd want to do this is when you want to attack an ally, where 'force fire' makes way more sense.

I don't know that people use attack and drag that much either, I generally just use an enemy unit as my mid point, but I can see cases where you might want to do this.

As for minimap, Muran is wrong there, our way is vastly superior. You use the same buttons for the minimap as you do the main screen (mid button is camera), which makes sense since the minimap is just a zoomed out view.

I've seen people attack ground when trying to fight. I'd also like to take a look at other games default zoom direction (this always catches me up where I find myself zooming the wrong way in Zero-K). Another thing that's always bothered me is that when you are moving a unit, the left mouse button selects/cancels selection and the right mouse button orders, while when you are building the left mouse button orders and the right mouse button selects/cancels (I remember my brother complaining about constantly cancelling his building orders by mistake and vaguely remember doing the same thing myself when I first started).
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AUrankAdminGoogleFrog
21 months ago

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Buildings are placed with the left mouse button in almost all RTS. It is consistent with non-context related commands. To create a patrol I select the patrol command and left click to place it, right click cancels.
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USrankDude[AOF]AgentE382
21 months ago
Attack + alt + drag: Napalm Bombers

Attack + drag: 200-300 Avengers
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EErankAdminAnarchid
21 months ago
(edited 21 months ago)


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quote:
I remember my brother complaining about constantly cancelling his building orders by mistake and vaguely remember doing the same thing myself when I first started

Westwood style. But there is no Westwood anymore, so no worries. Starcraft, the survivor and the fittest, does the same as ta/zk/spring - lmb for selection and specific stuff, right for contextual order.

quote:
I'd also like to take a look at other games default zoom direction (this always catches me up where I find myself zooming the wrong way in Zero-K).

It seems, Spring is one of those games. I mean, when i tried playing ZK on Windows with ZKL, i was startled by the suddenly inverse zoom.

quote:
Attack + drag: 200-300 Avengers

Any high-priority fast targets anyway. Like, that roach that runs into your units while they are occupied shooting a solar. If you try to rightclick it, you're toast.
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USrankDude[AOF]AgentE382
21 months ago
quote:

Any high-priority fast targets anyway. Like, that roach that runs into your units while they are occupied shooting a solar. If you try to rightclick it, you're toast.


I see your point. That's a very good reason to use that feature.
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CArankAdminPxtl
21 months ago
AUrankAdminSaktoth - I use the attack+drag command with defending against raiders often - attack + drag is less prone to "missing" when I'm giving a target-selecting order. Naked attack is more likely to be "oops, attack ground" because I missed a fast-moving unit, and naked rclick might be a move instead of atatcking the target. Best to play it safe and drag a box.
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ATrankNapoleonSkasi
21 months ago


quote:
Nope, why would they? I fully expect my 225% range beamlaser comm to perfectly snipe gnats and ticks at max range.

Uh. Sure, catapult at max range should be just as accurate as at min range too!
If bad accuracy is multiplied with range then lasers would be super accurate at any range, nub.
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EErankAdminAnarchid
21 months ago

Donator star
quote:
Uh. Sure, catapult at max range should be just as accurate as at min range too!

Uh-oh, somebody is mixing up accuracy and distribution, tsk tsk.
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ATrankNapoleonSkasi
21 months ago


Stop being silly. "Distribution" is when nubs get all the metal. "Accuracy" is when you hit or miss.
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USrankNewbieDerpyTheGreat
21 months ago
Lol... never even knew how to make that sumo attack my detriment untill I saw this thread

Anyway, this is suddenly a tactics thread
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CArankAdminPxtl
21 months ago
Fundamentally, treating "10% range" as equal value as "10% speed" or "10% firepower" is not right. 10% range buff is huge change in the combat potential of a unit. 10% firepower buff will rarely change the outcome of a battle.
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EErankAdminAnarchid
21 months ago

Donator star
quote:
"Accuracy" is when you hit or miss.

Fine! Spread. Hit-or-miss can depend on a lot of factors besides spread, like having your projectile be a slow-motion fireball that takes half a minute to reach target, or shooting into wrong direction altogether.
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PErankSoldiersatowar
21 months ago
A mi parecer, debe seguir usándose la forma anterior F=Fight y A=Attack. Este juego Zero-K es una obra de arte y no debe modificar su esencia tan ligeramente por complacer a unos pocos o muchos que vienen de otros juegos RTS. El tema es la identidad, los seguidores actuales de Zero-K están acostumbrados desde hace mucho con la manera anterior, cambiar ese estilo por tratar de hacerse similar a los demás RTS significaría perder el carácter propio.

En mi caso vengo de jugar los RTS desde el patriarca "Dune" luego muchos otros. Antes de Zero-K jugaba Red Alert 2 y la primera vez que lo jugué me pareció extraordinario, un juego maduro y con posibilidades de jugabilidad mucho mayores que RA2 (los que conocen este juego sabrán que hay muchas cosas que son diferentes con respecto a los atajos de teclado); fue duro el cambio sin embargo no requiere de mucho tiempo adaptarse al estilo e identidad de Zero-K.

En todo caso, ruego puedan tomar las decisiones que afecten la identidad del juego con más calma.



(TRANSLATE OF GOOGLE)

In my view, should continue to be used in the above manner F = Fight and A = Attack. This game Zero-K is a work of art and should not change its essence so slightly to please a few or many who come from other RTS games. The theme is identity, current followers Zero-K are long accustomed to the old way, change the style to try to be like other RTS mean losing one's character.

In my case I come to play the RTS from the patriarch "Dune" then many others. Zero-K Before playing Red Alert 2 and the first time I played I found extraordinary, a mature game and gameplay possibilities far greater than RA2 (those who know the game know that there are many things that are different with respect to keyboard shortcuts), was tough but change does not require much time to adjust to the style and identity of Zero-K.

In any case, I pray they can make decisions that affect the identity of the game a little easier.
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DErankSoldierTheEloIsALie
21 months ago

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PErankSoldiersatowar: I see your point, but ZK wants/needs to grow. Because it's cool if the veteran players have their game with character, but without new players, the game will eventually die out. And nobody wants that...
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ATrankNapoleonSkasi
21 months ago


This change does exactly 0% to make ZK bigger.
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GBrankNapoleonDroopyTheDog
21 months ago
(edited 21 months ago)

To be fair, I didn't quit because I had to learn the keyboard shortcuts.

If anything having fight on F helped make it clear that it wasn't just "attack move" from other RTSs, which tends to be a very basic "move here, stand still and shoot stuff if it's on the way".

Calling it fight made it stand out as something unique to Zero-K, which things like auto-skirm and auto-juke are.
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DErankSoldierTheEloIsALie
21 months ago

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I still don't see the exact problem people have with this change... Nobody has to change any of his settings...
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PLrankAdminRafal[ZK]
21 months ago
(edited 21 months ago)

It will cause confusion because you will never know if you should tell newbie to "press F for Fight" or "press A for Attack-Move", since you can't know if the newbie has settings from before or after the change.
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