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Zero-K v1.1.7.0 - Air Update


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60 posts, 2106 views
AUrankAdminGoogleFrog
13 months ago

Donator star
The main aim of this update is to fix planes (although this can't be done all at once). Bombers are a bit slower and the area attack bombers have been nerfed. Shadow is lighter all around and must now dive to attack if it wishes to have any chance to hit mobile units. Diving has the tradeoff of exposing the bomber to ground weaponry. Fighter battles should be more controllable with reduced fighter damage and the addition of an ability for Avenger.

Two new units have been added. Trident should even up the battlefield between planes and gunships while Funnelweb is a Jugglenaut replacement with more abilities.

Lastly shield penetration of Flamethrowers and Gauss has been removed. This is to normalise the power of shields and aid in their balance.


== New Units ==

Trident - We finally have an AA gunship. This slow gunship missile spewing gunship should allow the gunship factory to stand up to planes.

Funnelweb - A replacement of the Jugglenaut with less cost and more abilities. In addition to the Jugglenaut abilities this unit has a fixed Gauss Gun, a shield with a large battery and spawns attack drones.


== Air Balance ==

Shadow
* Cost 450 -> 300
* CruiseAlt 200 -> 220
* Health 1200 -> 800
* Speed 8.8 -> 7.6
* Damage 1200 -> 800
* Messed with projectile, now it is very easy to avoid if shot from high up.
* Reduced dive height.
* By default Shadow will dive attack against mobile ground units.
The intention is to reduce some 1000 range HP hardcounters, increase possibility
of attrition and add some interaction with mobile units. Accurate ground units
(eg riots or raiders) can act as a deterrent for Shadow strikes on mobiles.

Phoenix
* Cost 320 -> 400
* Health 660 -> 700
* Speed 10 -> 8
* Burn time reduced to by 33%

Stiletto:
* Cost 600 -> 700
* Speed 10 -> 9

Vamp:
* Speed 9.5 -> 7,8
* Damage reduced by 19%

Avenger:
* Health 350 -> 400
* Missile Damage 220 -> 150
* Added 5x speed boost special ability

Gnat:
* Damage 400 -> 600
* Health 300 -> 350


== AA Nerfs ==

We aim to reduce the hardcounter relationships between air and AA so here are some preemptive nerfs to AA which was particularly good against bombers.

Copperhead:
* DPS reduced 5%

Hacksaw:
* Cost 300 -> 380


== Shield Penetration ==

Flamethrowers and Gauss Guns no longer penetrate shields. These hardcounters were just a crutch holding back shield balance which works for all factories.


== Takeover Mode ==

Ivica in in the process of adding a gamemode in which players can capture additional units via point control. It is currently in development but is still playable in this stable. Full details are here: http://zero-k.info/Forum/Thread/5167


== Interface ==
* Added more visibility settings for commands. These are found in Settings/Interface/Command Visibility.
* Unified F4 hotkey to show economy. F4 now shows overdrive grid, metal spots, geovents, and highlights reclaim.


== Fixes ==
* Fixed metalconfigs for Brazillian_Battlefield_Remake_V2, Altored_Arctic
* Reduced the value of megamexes in Aberdeen6v6_Fix, now worth 2.2

+1 / -0
CZrank[DDAM]aiphee
13 months ago
(edited 13 months ago)



Nice update, Funnel is cool, i just dont like that gause dont penetrate shields.

There is no reason (ok, one but it is better to place razor kiss) to build that turret now, it should be upgraded or refined.
+0 / -0
ATrankSkasi
13 months ago


Even without testing them, my bet is that planes were over-nerfed. Just because this is what the last six years of patching were all about. Numbers prove it anyway: Shadow less than 50% efficiency, Vamp too.

Does Phoenix' reduced burn time decrease overall-damage, or does it mean it deals full burn damage in a shorter time?
quote:
* Burn time reduced to by 33%
And was it reduced TO or BY 33%?

Yay for the two interface updates! \o/
+0 / -0
AUrankAdminGoogleFrog
13 months ago

Donator star
Could be overnerfed, I want to see what happens. Shadow lost stats in proportion but it is hard to judge by eye because it's cost decreased. This has to be kept in mind.

Being-on-fire damage is equal for all units so a reduction in burn time is a reduction in overall damage.
+0 / -0
PLrankAdminRafal[ZK]
13 months ago
I really like the direction of changes to planes.

Hopefully one day the sea will get balanced too :)
+0 / -0
AUrankAdminGoogleFrog
13 months ago

Donator star
Actually about a month ago I was looking at sea balance but then Sak compared my plans to the air balance at the time. As air occurs in every game I stopped thinking about sea and looked at air.

Air will still need work but I could now look at sea. Sea is a safe thing to change because if the worst occurs people can simply avoid it.
+0 / -0
ATrankSkasi
13 months ago


Nah, with terraform you can never avoid sea! The worst that could happen is people terraforming mountain maps to go ships because of how OP they are! :)
+0 / -0
UArankIvica
13 months ago
(edited 13 months ago)

-deleted-

Release notes are okay. I just failed to notice what I was looking for.
+0 / -0
ATrankSkasi
13 months ago
(edited 13 months ago)



Release notes can be edited, Ivica! Just tell an admin what you want them to say.
+0 / -0
CHrankConnetable
13 months ago

Donator star
Thank you for this nice update. As GoogleFrog says, sometimes it is good to make substantial changes and see what happens. Just one question: is the diving behaviour of shadow controlled by a switch that I did not notice until now?
+0 / -0
ATrankSkasi
13 months ago


Yea, it's been there for a long time, Connetable. Just check unit states, you'll find it.
+0 / -0
DErank[2up]knorke
13 months ago
From page/this post I thought v1.1.7.0 is latest version but log into lobby and there is already newer being played? (olders too)

---

quote:
Flamethrowers and Gauss Guns no longer penetrate shields. These hardcounters were just a crutch holding back shield balance which works for all factories.
Did not feel like a crutch to me, in a RTS/scifi trope way it kinda made sense. I enjoyed quickly throwing down popup gauss turrets vs shieldspam. IMO could rather have been expanded on (make all beamlasers penetrate shields or something)
+0 / -0
ROrankForever
13 months ago
Shadows a bit to nerfed imo, regarding the bombing speed and the bomb speed when falling.
+0 / -0
USrank[AOF]AgentE382
13 months ago
YYyyeesssss!!!! The Gnat was de-nerfed!

All hail the OPness! Let the comnaps begin!
+0 / -0
UArankIvica
13 months ago
USrank[AOF]AgentE382
FUNnelweb napped in 23 gnats. :)
+0 / -0
USrank[AOF]AgentE382
13 months ago
@lvica

looool!!!
+0 / -0
EErankAdmin[ISP]Lauri
13 months ago

Donator star
Interesting changes. I wonder if we'll see more Licho bombers this way, as most of the other units in the fac got nerfed.
+0 / -0
GBrankBrofessional
13 months ago
IMO Very good update, maybe now stilettos won't be such a pain. Only the Gauss turret seem to be completely useless right now.
+0 / -0
AUrankAdminGoogleFrog
13 months ago

Donator star
With v1.1.7.4 I've improved Shadow behaviour. It moves faster when diving and should be more reliable.
+0 / -0
BRrankQuantumProjects
13 months ago
Very nice update. I think it is too early to tell whether or not these changes will endure, but considering how air and sea are somewhat unbalanced, it is necessary to make drastic changes and try out every possible path before commiting oneself to a single direction.

Two weeks of play and the devs will be able to tell whether they had it right or not.
+0 / -0
BRrankQuantumProjects
13 months ago
Meanwhile, the Unit Guide and the Advanced Unit Guides should be updated. Some units aren't there, some stats are outdated...
+0 / -0
GBrankBrofessional
13 months ago
I have played a couple of games, and i have to say this update is brilliant. Gunships are no longer shits and are used a lot, and it's much more entertaining to see brawlers in actions instead of annoying stilettos.

+0 / -0
USrankJamuk
13 months ago
(edited 13 months ago)

I don't mind the update but I think you missed one of the biggest problems, that of the chainsaw. The hacksaw and cobra didn't really need nerfs imho unless you were doing it preemptively to deal with the now weaker bombers.

Think about it, every turret has a specific role right?
LLT- light point defence
Defender- superlight aa and kills scouts
Stardust- riot anti spam
Faraday- emp and riot
HLT- Anti heavy and assault
Gauss- frontline artillery resistant point defence
Pene-anti strider (which it doesn't really do due to rediculous range)
DDM- medium range fortress
Hacksaw- anti bomber
Razor- front-line artillery resistant aa
Cobra- Anti-gunship and late game air spam
Screamer- AA artillery/ air area denial

So where does chainsaw fit in?
Chainsaw is long range like mini screamer, at a third the price.
Chainsaw has rapid rof so it can deal with swarms of weak units.
Chainsaw has high dps so it can deal with heavier air units.

What is the chainsaw's role? It doesn't really have one other than pwning all air as far as I can tell. I would remove it completely if I had a choice, to be honest.

Instead of chainsaw, buff cobra's aoe to specialize it and make it actually get built sometimes. It would work as a defence against things like avenger or gunship spam and dense clouds of bombers that hacksaw and screamer can't.

I'm a newby so take my opinion with a grain of salt though.
+0 / -0
UArankIvica
13 months ago
(edited 13 months ago)

http://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/184060

The example of Takeover 0.1.0 battle.
The decided unit of choice (7 out of 10 votes) was:
Singularity in player boxes. Which was owned by @BlackRazor123 (west team) and DErankMoffmaster (east team) respectively.
The rest of the game progressed as normally.

The only non-fatal bug was found (and fixed already in trunk) that unit needs be <80% emped for capture process to be restarted.
+0 / -0
AUrankAdminGoogleFrog
13 months ago

Donator star
Chainsaw has very bad DPS for it's cost. It has 40% less DPS/cost than Razor's Kiss and that is usually cited as an AA turret with weak damage output. Chainsaw's role is to prevent fighter patrols in the area and prolonged use of gunships. It should kill a bomber if they move too far into it's range. In a head on assault Shadows will kill it for cost and Heavy Gunships will do very well for cost.

Chainsaw may need nerfs as it is designed to counter fighters and bombers (with support) so with the bomber nerfs it is probably too powerful. But I think it's role is decent as is.
+0 / -0
USrankJamuk
13 months ago
Okay, I guess you're probably right. Like I said, am newbie so very real chance I'm just mistaken.
+0 / -0
DErankmojjj
13 months ago

Donator star
USrankJamuk , for a person which is relatively new to the game, your anaysis of the def structures above is pretty good. keep it up ! ;)
+0 / -0
CZrankAdminLicho
13 months ago


Chainsaw still is the turret of choice because of its superior range. DPS is not that important if enemy air stays in range 2-3x longer and it covers 4x-9x more area.
+0 / -0
GBrankfiendicus_prime
13 months ago

Donator star
Really loving 1.1.7.x too :)

quote:
Chainsaw has very bad DPS for it's cost. It has 40% less DPS/cost than Razor's Kiss

That's not fair. Razor misses much more often and covers 1/3 of the area of Chainsaw. Also, because of insane range of Chainsaw it can easily be put away from front and under a shield. Very few ground units will be able to range the shield and air/gunships will struggle to take it out while being cut down. Screamer has the same issue but at least missiles co$t and can be baited.

FWIW (also a nab here) I feel there is one too many air defence structure.
+0 / -0
DErankmojjj
13 months ago

Donator star
ya. chainsaw is on top of your list of options when you lack an air player or dont have air superiority to get area denial protection from bombers, support in an AA fighter battle in your favor, etc...
+0 / -0
EErankAdminAnarchid
13 months ago

Donator star
quote:
Screamer has the same issue but at least missiles co$t and can be baited.

I don't think Screamer missiles have costed anything besides time, for a while now.

quote:
Chainsaw still is the turret of choice because of its superior range. DPS is not that important if enemy air stays in range 2-3x longer and it covers 4x-9x more area.

QFT
+0 / -0
PLrank[Sprung]
13 months ago
Regarding Chainsaw, can we steal the sexy Chainsaw model from BAR?
+0 / -0
EErankAdminAnarchid
13 months ago
(edited 13 months ago)


Donator star
quote:
can we steal the sexy Chainsaw model from BAR?

Nope. But somebody could finish that one that was spotted on forums earlier:



... and actually even made it to game:



... all the while being potentally even more sexy without infringing on BAR and requiring their huge-ass atlas.

And even if it can't be finished, it could be published as-is perhaps, to allow other people to rehash it.
+0 / -0
GBrankBrofessional
13 months ago
Chainsaw seems fine to me, could be a little bit cheaper though, but it's range is really something. When i play air, chainsaws always deny my area of effectiveness a lot, and it's not easy to bring it down either.
+0 / -0
ATrankSkasi
13 months ago


I already suggested that some time ago, but it fits here very well:

Merge Defender, Hacksaw, Razor, Cobra, Chainsaw and Screamer into 4 or 5 units. Some of them are very similar, for example defender/hacksaw (high alpha) and chainsaw/screamer (long range) and razor/cobra (high dps). I understand that they are all a bit different and none of them are the same, but theres just soooo much dedicated anti-air stuff (5 statics, 11 units!!, some weapons on other units).

Among others, one reason I started playing CA very actively was the design goal "allow weapons to target any unit, if it makes sense". The number of dedicated units should be reduced, not increased.
+0 / -0
GBrankBrofessional
13 months ago
(edited 13 months ago)

Decreasing number of dedicated units might lead people to using tactics like massing one type of unit, and that's something that i wouldn't like to see. I don't agree with Hacksaw being same as defender, they're completely other kind of buildings. However, i feel like Cobra is kind of unneeded. I almost never build it, maybe because of it's mediocrity, when i don't need a lot of AA i just go for razor or two when it's required, and when i do need lots of AA i just go for chainsaw.
+0 / -0
UArankIvica
13 months ago
(edited 13 months ago)

Think cobra is over-nerfed (in the past)? I rarely see it too. Though I think it aims better than razor kiss. But it's easier to kill for land units.
+0 / -0
EErankAdminAnarchid
13 months ago
(edited 13 months ago)


Donator star
Cobra has a very niche role: quickly mowing down invading plane swarms that go for your singu on Speedmetal.

Everything else is done better by other turrets - and if you insist on having a high-dps flak in your posession, copperhead is always better, because at least it can compensate for the mediocre range and low survivability with its ability to move.

It has nothing do do with 5% dps reduction. It's a role issue.
+0 / -0
ATrankSkasi
13 months ago


Cobra's great to protect your base from bombers too. It has always been, but it is extremely good now that bomber's weight has been decreased, 'cause it needs more bombers and they all have less HP, so aoe is super-efficient and usually enemy bombers will come in big big stacks so as to take less damage from silly Chainsawspam.
+0 / -0
UArankIvica
13 months ago
(edited 13 months ago)

EErankAdminAnarchid and ATrankSkasi uses skill: detailed explanation.

It's super effective.
+0 / -0
AUrankAdminGoogleFrog
13 months ago

Donator star
Cobra is the static flak turret. It had no DPS nerf.
+0 / -0
GBrankAdminTheSponge
13 months ago


I really like this general air nerf, why did you rename the Vesper though? Also, what engine will we be updating to, whenever that will be? 95.x?
+0 / -0
CZrank[DDAM]aiphee
13 months ago


quote:


quote:
can we steal the sexy Chainsaw model from BAR?

Nope. But somebody could finish that one that was spotted on forums earlier:



I will try to finish it in august. I accidentally deleted source files from cloud, here the are if someone wanna look:
http://ubuntuone.com/2axs02k1m21VSdMujTkrPV

Toughest part will be rotation animation, it will take looong.
+0 / -0
MYrankAdminKingRaptor
13 months ago

Donator star
quote:
Also, what engine will we be updating to, whenever that will be? 95.x?

95.0 is expected, yea.
+1 / -0
GBrank[GBC]1v0ry_k1ng
13 months ago
(edited 13 months ago)


Donator star
yey, good release!

I very very much like that flamers dont penetrate shields.

I think guass should penetrate shields still - the mechanic of players making guass turrets to counter early felon was good. The only units with guass are the turret, com and the shitty scrubber so I cant see it breaking balance, and it makes the weapon unique.

Most importantly: I really, really, REALLY think we should make guass and flamers do a fixed amount of damage to all targets ( that is, the projectile can only hit each unit once regardless of hitbox size). If they need to do more damage to larger units then do this through a forumla that takes the max hp of the target into account, NOT through springs super buggy random physics.
+5 / -1
ATrankSkasi
13 months ago


Or fix Spring physics. Hurr!
+0 / -0
GBrankfiendicus_prime
13 months ago

Donator star
+1 for gauss penetrating shields.
Perhaps it would be interesting if it did 50% DMG to shield and 50% went through?
+1 / -0
AUrankAdminSaktoth
13 months ago

Donator star
The scrubber is actually a really good raider, and you're forgetting the Detriment, not that it matters.

This one turret countering the whole factory is really naff. Now the flame/gauss change is done, we should nerf the power of shields instead, so that more of the soft counters (like penetrating AoE, EMP or inaccurate weapons like Tremor) are effective.

They should do fixed damage to targets though, I think. The hitvolume dependence was fine when they went less than half their speed, but they go so fast now that it's basically been owled, and is random 'crit' style 2-3x damage rather than scaling nicely, and is best removed.
+2 / -0
USrank[AOF]AgentE382
13 months ago
But...but...but... My Gauss Rifle Com.... :'(
+0 / -0
GBrankBrofessional
13 months ago
AUrankAdminSaktoth Yes, the random crit factor in gauss weapons is existant and is huge problem in my opinion too, it should be stabilized.
+0 / -0
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