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Detriment Too Powerful?

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I've talked to Rafal a bit and he thinks Detriment is a bit too powerful. That it trumps FFA. I can see how this can happen, what are others thoughts? There were two simple ideas which would reduce it's power in (perhaps) a desired way.

Make it Untransportable
You can often kill a player just by ramming a transported Det into their base.

Tone Down The Explosion
Countering a Det for cost is hard because the more you throw at it the more you lose in the explosion. A Det in your opponent's base is a win-win situation, either the det survives to be repaired and reused or it blows up taking your opponent with it.
+4 / -2

5 years ago
b-b-but you got the reclaim!

in general, making a det binds your eco for quite some time. in this period, the opponent player(s) have an advantage.

about transporting:
if the enemy has 24k for a det, you should have at least some metal for a screamer or some AA fighters. if you dont scout, its your fault, not the dets being too fat.

about the explosion:
i think its fine. generally spoken, i would like to see every unit explode according to its weight (but leave a reasonable reclaim).
+4 / -0
{redacted}
5 years ago
As I understand it Detriments are supposed to decide games, but often they don't, so balance seems fine.
+1 / -0
This post has been downvoted below -5 and collapsed, click here to expand
lol, what drugs you on? det sucks for cost...

det:
24000m cost
1400dps
85k hp

68 zeus:
23800 cost (+1 eraser to sneak up on stuff)
7140dps + 18650emp dps (lol kills a det in 4 seconds flat)
163k hp

133 thugs:
23930 cost
5716 dps
166250 shield hp
2128 shield regen/sec
127280 hp
(o trololololol!, o lolololotroll thugwall laught at your dets puny cannons)

24k in ANY normal unit outperforms det masively
nuf said?

*before some noob says this, i can kill a det with cranespam, ill just dig a hole to -10,000 elmos and drop the det off the bottom of the map "XXX det fell into the void"
+0 / -7
5 years ago
1:1 spam of Reapers and Banishers, heavy weight units with pretty big damage:

14 pairs (28 units)
4500 DPS
118k health

I remember throwing a comparable amount of reaper-banishers at one of Rafal's Dets, and it completely owned them.
Every time a unit dies, it detracts DPS from the swarm. So Det's DPS is steady while units' DPS drops all the time.
Det outranges most units, so it can kite. Det outclimbs most units, so it can traverse more difficult terrain, giving it double bonus against vehicles, tanks and hovers.
+5 / -0
Quote> 24k in ANY normal unit outperforms det masively

Hasn't det tiny AOE?
24k fleas will kill your PC before they kill det!

Now seriously, you also have to take into account how many units can fire in parallel or the movement / wreckage blocking!


Edit: LOL, Blackdutchie was first!
+1 / -0


5 years ago
I'll sign for untransportable but teleportable any time of day. You can still use it as a sneakable armed nuke, but at least not with an impact vessel of a 500m go-anywhere no-risk transport.
+3 / -0
DErankNeonSturm
i have spawned ~500 fleas under a det with cheat command, and they make a mess of the det fast

just some simple math, if you make 1200 fleas, and each flea shoots the det just for 2 seconds each

1200*38*2=91200 damage
ie. deat is die


NLrankBlackdutchie
you are off topic, read start thread again...

this is a discussion of the effecivnes of det COMPARED to other units, not AGAINST other units.
Also:
A. there are units that can kill a det for fractions of its cost (venom, gnat, stileto, spy, ult, and scorp come to mind)
B. 24000 in reaper/banisher can attack enemy front from 1-28 difrent angles, and kill whole front in a single second

EErankAdminAnarchid
i dont think djin cant teleport a det
+0 / -1
quote:
ie. deat is die

Now we just need a way to instantly spam 1200 glaives at any place at will, without them all getting murdered by, well, anything.

quote:
a screamer or some AA fighters

Both are baitable, and even if you shoot it down, it just lands on its feet and walks into your base casually. By the time it's in range to be shot down, it's taken utility of vindicator speed already - and you're in serious trouble.
+4 / -1
:P for a det then:

Now we just need a way to instantly spawn 24000m det at any place at will, without you all getting murdered by, well, anything.


its called scouting, and preperation, and 15 minute long build times

also zeusdrop ftw, death on demand
+0 / -3

5 years ago
If you go untransportable, there's a question of which other striders should be untransportable. And you'd probably want to buff the teleporter.
+2 / -0
quote:
i dont think djin cant teleport a det

When you are unsure, it's time for SCIENCE. A spoiler, though: it totally can.

Some time ago, it could also do it midair (aka: from space), unsure about now.

quote:
there's a question of which other striders should be untransportable. And you'd probably want to buff the teleporter.

Other striders don't really benefit from being dropped right into the enemy's nest. And it takes like 30 seconds for Djinn to port a Det.
+2 / -0


5 years ago
agree with untransportable, so long as it is able to pass through deep water. It needs to retain its ridiculous game ending power, because the whole point of the unit is to end those games that otherwise NEVER END
+3 / -0
i have seen a det being reapered. but the situation was exceptional. the det's dying vindy dropped it into a pack of 20-30 reapers. they were all in range and clustered around the det. det could not escape. so they killed it. (was on speedmetal, smaller part of the central road)

28 reapers = 24k metal
+0 / -0
5 years ago
I think Starlight is a worse rush.

3 Dets without transport will lose to it.
7 Banthas without transport will lose to it.

You lose your striders sometimes before you can retreat after you see it (even det).

And the worst: A det rush needs air bait 30 aircrafts cost 9k metal + det = Starlight.
Starlight not.

Is Det really so OP, or FFA games just a fail due to overdrive-porcin on sandcastles while others kill each other's economy and are unable to counter it?
+0 / -0


5 years ago
quote:
unable to counter it

Well, how do you reliably counter something that has no counters short of Starlight.

(and also can counter starlight if you drop it on top)
+0 / -0
{redacted}
I remember a DSD game where Puppies managed to kill a Detriment alone. South was full of wreckages, so Puppies multiplied like mad. HP vs Damage says it needs about 90 of them to kill a Det, that's 4500 metal. Of course the real cost is higher, because many probably die before they get in range, but they probably still manage to make to make more than four times cost (which would require 120 Puppies or less).

Of course Puppies would only work when transportation is disabled. On that note:

quote:
If you go untransportable, there's a question of which other striders should be untransportable. And you'd probably want to buff the teleporter.

"Untransportable" could be one of the things that all striders have in common. That would be easy to understand and remember for every player.
+2 / -0


5 years ago
I wouldn't make smaller striders untransportable.
+6 / -0
What do you think about that idea?
Let it be transportable but increase the damage the detriment take of the fall when transporter is killed. So you are still able to get it out of digged holes, without trying it with a possible con battle. That way the player with the transporter have to watch out or his detriment is halv dead or something like that.
+0 / -0


5 years ago
... or you could warp it out with a djinn!
+1 / -0
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