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Map: Avalanche-v2
 Avalanche-v2
Title: 1v1: All welcome!
Host: CZrankElerium
Game version: Zero-K v1.2.6.20
Engine version: 97.0.1-127-g5666510
Battle ID: 273033
Started: 9 years ago
Duration: 2 minutes
Players: 2
Bots: False
Mission: False
Rating: Competitive
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Team 1
Chance of victory: 24.8%

USrankRyMarq
Team 2
Chance of victory: 75.2%

EErankAdminAnarchid
Spectators
FRrankHelwor

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EErankAdminAnarchid
9 years ago
It seems that not long ago Domi used to be a counter to every hover short of pene.

But then something happened, and now it cannot even reasonably harm Mace.

What was this x-factor? A stealth speed or dps alteration by engine or just people figuring out you can retreat unscathed?

In this new world, what is LV's supposed counter to Mace?
+0 / -0
Skasi
9 years ago
In theory assault counters riots. In practice Mace is not your everyday riot. Mace countering vehicles has been an issue for years. I've done quite a few hover-veh 1v1 tests with Floris a few years ago, other people too. I don't think Domi ever really changed this
+0 / -0
RUrankkmar
9 years ago
If it's a lone mace, you need about 3 scorchers and a bit of micro. Otherwise it's ravagers you're looking for. Haven't tryed dart spam, but you can try abusing the retarget delay of the mace to get some shots in.
+0 / -0


EErankAdminAnarchid
9 years ago
quote:
In theory assault counters riots

In theory, softly. In theory, the real counter is skirmishers. This is an unit defeating its supposed counter.

Ravagers can overwhelm maces and do blitzkrieg etc, but i don't think they are reliable, especially since projectile speed nerf making mace capable of dodging.
+0 / -0


AUrankAdminGoogleFrog
9 years ago
Well LV lacks a real skirmisher. Slasher has the range but not the movement and Dominatrix is weird.
+0 / -0


EErankAdminAnarchid
9 years ago
quote:
Well LV lacks a real ... Slasher

That's symptomatic, used to be case with AA.
+0 / -0


AUrankAdminGoogleFrog
9 years ago
Would a mobile Slasher be OP? Sometimes we must ask ourselves this.
+0 / -0


EErankAdminAnarchid
9 years ago
(edited 9 years ago)
Depends on degrees of mobility. At current maxspeed, range and dps, i'd say LV would become the Slasher Factory.

Even while slower, they'd be that self-synergyzing, lanchester-maximizing super-generalist thing to be dreaded, even if it's technically beatable.
+0 / -0

USrankRyMarq
9 years ago
Rather than a mobile slasher, I think the Wolverine is a good candidate for that behavior. It is a bit weak right now, while the slasher still has a number of uses and is seen in more competitive games in many circumstances.
+1 / -0


EErankAdminAnarchid
9 years ago
Turret-firing skirmishing Wolverine sounds good as an alt-skirmisher.

Some factories have two riots, some have two raiders, and LV could have two skirmishers (while also having two artilleries and two raiders)
+0 / -0

EErank[ISP]Lauri
9 years ago
(edited 9 years ago)
I've always liked how LV and HT facs don't have to rely on traditional skirms, that's one of the reasons why I enjoy using those factories. It's interesting when different factories play out differently.

LV vs hover probably needs more testing. Mace/scalpel balls can be annihilated with thunderbird + anything faster than the ball, so scorchers or ravagers. The tough thing here is that dagger forces either leveler or slasher in response, neither of which is good at utlizing the disarm capabilities of thunderbird. Once daggers have been dealt with, transitioning into something faster needs to happen ASAP if thunderbird is the counter of choice for dealing with mace/scalpel.

Replays of players smashing scary hover armies with the awesome thunderbird:
http://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/273325 (kodachispam + thunderbird)
http://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/267854 (ravagerspam + thunderbird)
+0 / -0

DErankAdminmojjj
9 years ago
while looking up that silly renamed plane: since stiletto uses silly disarm, rewrite its silly description. there is no silly purple "lightning".
+0 / -0
GBrankTheSponge
9 years ago
Now may be a good time to post my replay set of daggers being OP.
http://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/273326
http://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/273234
http://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/273228
http://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/273022
http://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/273032
http://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/272894
+0 / -0


EErankAdminAnarchid
9 years ago
(edited 9 years ago)
If you need Thunderbird to beat Mace as LV, then you can't beat Mace as LV.

I've made that other thread for people doing "more testing" to figure out how and if it's possible to beat Mace with LV. It has two "disciplines": beating a single Mace for cost, and beating five Maces for cost.

Assuming you are allowed to use Thunderbird, your submission to 5-mace thing would be an airfac (600), a Thunderbird(550), and 6 Scorchers. I guess that could work. Though at that rate you could just get an airfac, reload pad, and 3 Ravens, winning the engagement with zero risk and attrition. I will not dispute that planes beat Mace.
+0 / -0

EErank[ISP]Lauri
9 years ago
I mostly agree that LV not having a counter on its own is kind of bad.

If however in practice thunderbird is easy enough to get and powerful enough to deal with the situation then a practical imbalance doesn't necessarily exist.
+0 / -0