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I think you can describe it as vibes but I prefer to call it "Balance Design Goals".
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1 |
I think you can describe it as vibes but I prefer to call it "Balance Design Goals".
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| 2 |
A game starts with a vision. A vision for gameplay among other things.
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2 |
A game starts with a vision. A vision for gameplay among other things.
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| 3 |
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3 |
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| 4 |
Tangents will be in the spoiler tags.
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4 |
Tangents will be in the spoiler tags.
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| 5 |
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5 |
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| 6 |
[spoiler]Even in singleplayer games, balancing the options you give to the player can be important and enhance the gameplay experience.
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6 |
[spoiler]Even in singleplayer games, balancing the options you give to the player can be important and enhance the gameplay experience.
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| 7 |
You can give the player new overpowered weapons and abilities as a sense of progression or as a reward. There is nothing wrong with that, but if you wanted the player to experience a multitude of gameplay, weapons and abilities, and they keep using the same overpowered thing, maybe it is the balance of your game that is off.
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7 |
You can give the player new overpowered weapons and abilities as a sense of progression or as a reward. There is nothing wrong with that, but if you wanted the player to experience a multitude of gameplay, weapons and abilities, and they keep using the same overpowered thing, maybe it is the balance of your game that is off.
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| 8 |
Now in the same vain, even for an RTS you can give the players overpowered units.
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8 |
Now in the same vain, even for an RTS you can give the players overpowered units.
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| 9 |
Superweapons are a good candidate for overpowered units even in competitive settings for RTS.
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9 |
Superweapons are a good candidate for overpowered units even in competitive settings for RTS.
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| 10 |
Superweapons can be designed as a definite end to the game.
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10 |
Superweapons can be designed as a definite end to the game.
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| 11 |
Superweapons can be designed to make or break the player building it and decide the game if it gets done.
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11 |
Superweapons can be designed to make or break the player building it and decide the game if it gets done.
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| 12 |
Superweapons can be designed as an escalation tool for long games, or be so prohibitively expensive that the will never come out in games before one side has a big advantage and uses it to end the game.[/spoiler]
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12 |
Superweapons can be designed as an escalation tool for long games, or be so prohibitively expensive that the will never come out in games before one side has a big advantage and uses it to end the game.[/spoiler]
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| 13 |
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| 14 |
However, balancing something as complex as an RTS is very hard.
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14 |
However, balancing something as complex as an RTS is very hard.
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| 15 |
Often it will done iteratively over several years.
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15 |
Often it will done iteratively over several years.
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| 16 |
[spoiler]When Chris Taylor and his fellow game developers made the original Total Annihilation 28 years ago, they too had a vision.
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16 |
[spoiler]When Chris Taylor and his fellow game developers made the original Total Annihilation 28 years ago, they too had a vision.
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| 17 |
In their vision, the cost of units was very varied where the values of buildtime, metalcost and energy cost seemed to have been created in a very robotic fashion without nice human comprehensible round numbers.
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17 |
In their vision, the cost of units was very varied where the values of buildtime, metalcost and energy cost seemed to have been created in a very robotic fashion without nice human comprehensible round numbers.
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| 18 |
Maybe these values remain perfectly balanced according to some ancient algorithm created long ago.
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18 |
Maybe these values remain perfectly balanced according to some ancient algorithm created long ago.
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| 19 |
It remains a mystery to me to this day why and from where those values were chosen and how involved humans were in choosing those values.
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19 |
It remains a mystery to me to this day why and from where those values were chosen and how involved humans were in choosing those values.
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| 20 |
Many games, including Zero-K and BAR, have broken away from this vision.
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20 |
Many games, including Zero-K and BAR, have broken away from this vision.
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| 21 |
We have used human numbers comprehensible to our sensibilities for ease of balancing and gameplay comprehension.[/spoiler]
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21 |
We have used human numbers comprehensible to our sensibilities for ease of balancing and gameplay comprehension.[/spoiler]
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| 22 |
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| 23 |
RTS are particularly hard to balance because they are supposed to remain strategically deep even at high levels of play after years of play.
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23 |
RTS are particularly hard to balance because they are supposed to remain strategically deep even at high levels of play after years of play.
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| 24 |
If one unit or strategy remains dominant for too long, it can be argued that it should be nerfed for the strategic depth of the game.
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24 |
If one unit or strategy remains dominant for too long, it can be argued that it should be nerfed for the strategic depth of the game.
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| 26 |
Is Zero-K perfectly balanced?
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26 |
Is Zero-K perfectly balanced?
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| 27 |
Every player has the same starting options available so the answer is yes.
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27 |
Every player has the same starting options available so the answer is yes.
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| 28 |
But don't players choose commander chassis, factory and starting position before the game starts? That is true. Zero-K is not perfectly balanced. Those are basically blind choices made before you start the game and before you know what your opponent is doing.
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28 |
But don't players choose commander chassis, factory and starting position before the game starts? That is true. Zero-K is not perfectly balanced. Those are basically blind choices made before you start the game and before you know what your opponent is doing.
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| 29 |
Factory choice in 1v1 can be compared to a race in Starcraft or a civilization in Age of Empires.
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29 |
Factory choice in 1v1 can be compared to a race in Starcraft or a civilization in Age of Empires.
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| 30 |
Is every factory balanced to every other factory? No. Some factories are simple better on some maps like civilizations in Age of Empires 2 are better on some types of maps.
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30 |
Is every factory balanced to every other factory? No. Some factories are simple better on some maps like civilizations in Age of Empires 2 are better on some types of maps.
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| 31 |
Okey. But at least mirror match-ups are balanced in Zero-K, right?
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Okey. But at least mirror match-ups are balanced in Zero-K, right?
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| 32 |
No. Even though mirror match-ups are perfectly balanced they might not be balanced in strategic depth.
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32 |
No. Even though mirror match-ups are perfectly balanced they might not be balanced in strategic depth.
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| 33 |
The current strength of Hermit would be an example where it hurts the strategic depth of Zero-K.
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33 |
The current strength of Hermit would be an example where it hurts the strategic depth of Zero-K.
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Is Hermit overpowered on all maps and in all match-ups? No.
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34 |
Is Hermit overpowered on all maps and in all match-ups? No.
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| 35 |
Is Hermit overpowered on some hilly maps and in a spider mirror? I would argue yes, but this would be on so called "vibes" or balance design goals.
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35 |
Is Hermit overpowered on some hilly maps and in a spider mirror? I would argue yes, but this would be on so called "vibes" or balance design goals.
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| 36 |
There
is
still
some
strategy
on
a
map
like
Ravaged
in
a
spider
mirror
where
the
expansion
patterns
matter
and
you
want
to
use
Fleas,
Venoms,
or
Redback
before
you
start
spamming
Hermit.
However,
once
you
are
on
Hermit
and
have
them
on
autoretreat
and
repairing
them,
there
is
little
reason
to
anything
else.
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36 |
There
is
still
some
strategy
on
a
map
like
Ravaged
in
a
spider
mirror
where
the
expansion
patterns
matter
and
you
want
to
use
Fleas,
Venoms,
or
Redback
before
you
start
spamming
Hermit.
However,
once
you
are
on
Hermit
and
have
them
on
autoretreat
and
repair
them,
there
is
little
reason
to
do
anything
else.
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| 37 |
[spoiler]Recluse
do
potentially
counter
them
en-masse
but
you
usually
lose
too
much
ground
trying
to
do
that
which
means
that
the
Hermit
can
simply
overrun
the
other
player
or
you
can
simply
switch
to
a
counter
to
Recluse
like
Phoenix,
napalm
bomber,
or
Firewalker,
napalm
artillery.
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37 |
[spoiler]Recluse
do
potentially
counter
them
en
masse
but
you
usually
lose
too
much
ground
trying
to
do
that
which
means
that
the
Hermit
can
simply
overrun
the
other
player
or
you
can
simply
switch
to
a
counter
to
Recluse
like
Phoenix,
napalm
bomber,
or
Firewalker,
napalm
artillery.
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| 38 |
Venom is simply too fragile and kills Hermits too slowly to contest with Hermit spam.
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38 |
Venom is simply too fragile and kills Hermits too slowly to contest with Hermit spam.
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| 39 |
Fleas
can
distract
and
kill
some
lone
Hermits
but
is
easily
countered
by
Lotus
turrets
Venom
or
Redback
before
they
manage
to
actually
kill
Hermits.
|
39 |
Fleas
can
distract
and
kill
some
lone
Hermits
but
is
easily
countered
by
Lotus
turrets,
Venom
or
Redback
before
they
manage
to
actually
kill
Hermits.
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| 40 |
Redback
generally
gets
kite
and
struggles
to
finish
off
Hermits
when
they
are
massed.
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40 |
Redback
generally
gets
kited
and
struggles
to
finish
off
Hermits
when
they
are
massed.
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| 41 |
Crab can simply be outmaneuvered and is easily stunned by Widow if it tries to stay mobile.
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41 |
Crab can simply be outmaneuvered and is easily stunned by Widow if it tries to stay mobile.
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| 42 |
Hermit
is
still
pretty
tanky
even
though
it
is
the
"lightest"/cheapest
assualt
and
can
mostly
shrug
off
artillery,
and
napalm
like
Phoenix
and
Firewalker.
[/spoiler]
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42 |
Hermit
is
still
pretty
tanky
even
though
it
is
the
"lightest"/cheapest
assault
and
can
mostly
shrug
off
artillery,
and
napalm
like
Phoenix
and
Firewalker.
[/spoiler]
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| 43 |
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43 |
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| 44 |
I would argue that Hermit takes up too much strategic space at the cost of too many other units. It is simply too good and kinda boring as a skill expression.
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44 |
I would argue that Hermit takes up too much strategic space at the cost of too many other units. It is simply too good and kinda boring as a skill expression.
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| 45 |
It can be argued that some maps or match-ups being dominated by singular gameplay strategies is not all that bad.
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45 |
It can be argued that some maps or match-ups being dominated by singular gameplay strategies is not all that bad.
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| 46 |
In Total Annihilation, large open maps like Comet Catcher was typically dominated by light rovers/tanks/raiders like Weasel(Dart in Zero-K) and Flash(like Scorcher in Zero-K), and people are still playing those maps in TA to this day.
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46 |
In Total Annihilation, large open maps like Comet Catcher was typically dominated by light rovers/tanks/raiders like Weasel(Dart in Zero-K) and Flash(like Scorcher in Zero-K), and people are still playing those maps in TA to this day.
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| 47 |
Escalating beyond that is only a reward you could get in really close games or if you already were far ahead already.
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47 |
Escalating beyond that is only a reward you could get in really close games or if you already were far ahead already.
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| 48 |
I
think
mono
raider
gameplay
is
much
more
fun
in
comparision
to
monohermit
in
spider
mirrors.
|
48 |
I
think
mono
raider
gameplay
is
much
more
fun
in
comparison
to
monohermit
in
spider
mirrors.
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| 49 |
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49 |
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| 50 |
Glaiveman will you have you convinced that cloaky factory is peak but that cloaky vs cloaky is still a boring match-up because it is just a mirror matchup or something.
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50 |
Glaiveman will you have you convinced that cloaky factory is peak but that cloaky vs cloaky is still a boring match-up because it is just a mirror matchup or something.
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Do not nerf hermits