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Do not nerf hermits

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22 days ago



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Nerf hermits.
+0 / -0

22 days ago


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Buff hermit Multiplayer B2429185 2 on Fallendell_V4
+1 / -0


22 days ago
Spec-K balance changes when?
+2 / -0
TL:DR?

I'm gonna say my video is better than yours without even having watched yours :-P


Nerf Hermit
+1 / -0
quote:
I'm gonna say my video is better than yours without even having watched yours :-P


I think the point of mine was more that if enough people think hermits are OP, vibes justify the nerf.

It is what it is, because it is.
+0 / -0
22 days ago
if nobody can beat this then i think hermits are op

https://zero-k.info/Mods/Detail/203
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22 days ago
I really don't see what hermit chicken has to do with the balance of player vs player.
+1 / -0
Vibes are temporary and there will always be vibes of some sort. Nerfing based on vibes results in a new prominent narrative arising, requiring more balance based on vibes. There is a bottomless pit of balance vibes caused by the need to explain losses without denting ego.

I am for the nerf on hermit, but don't like this reasoning.
+1 / -0

21 days ago
TL;DR:

This isn't a real tldr of the 2 videos. But discussion points include the quality game design memes you've heard of before:
  • That one fps game with 2 teams, one gun had a better k/d over all players even though the stats were identical. It was cause one sounded cooler and players literally played better cause it sounded cooler
  • That time in league of legends where they nerfed a champion and the champ had a winrate drop. But the patch that hit the client didn't actually apply the nerfs in the patch notes, it did literally nothing? Players just sucked shit more cause mad and bad
  • That other time in league of legends where they nerfed a champion... it's the same thing as before. "It happens surprisingly frequently with league"
  • This bullet point is me shitting on league more, not included in the video. (I play dota2) Did you know that in the recent worlds championship, the devs didn't like all the laneswapping that was occurring? This has lead to the final incentive of all incentives against lane swapping: each player gets a role-specific quest at the pick screen before the pregame, and not being in the requisite lane area griefs yourself against the quest progress. It's WOW well rested buff all over again for the 352nd time.
  • a lot of discussion about fighting games because the author was a fighting game developer, and player created tier lists. Did you know that Yoshi jumped many tiers in the smash melee tier lists? This is because someone played yoshi good, and noone knew that yoshi could be played good for over 15 years. No this game doesn't get patched, it's a nintendo game on the funny tiny disk system that's a box you can carry around easily.
  • Actually, it can be a good thing to let easy to execute strategies exist, and it's also a good thing to let hard to execute strategies be better than easy to execute stratagies. Risk/reward. Let there be player expression. We're talking about fighting games.
  • players are always right that something is wrong, but they are infrequently (never) right about how to fix it. (clap please)

"there is no hard multiplayer games" is more RTS focused. key points:
  • Players complain about decreasing the skill cap too much. The skill cap in question: spending time manually queuing workers, placing farms, building pop cap. Key examples are age of empires 2 and starcraft 2.
  • The increase of accessablility from starcraft 1 to starcraft 2 increased strategic play, not QWOPing the keyboard and mouse (DAE like having a unit selection cap of 13 lings?)
  • identifying 'difficulty' of a game being an amalgamation of multiple measureable tasks, primarily strategy and execution. A general thesis in line with zero-k's "Let players fight players, not the UI"
  • Modern RTS QWOPing stems from technical limitations from the time of the origin of the genre, no player campaigns adding new QWOPing, only conserving existing QWOPing and resisting change.

I think the 1 hour video has more to do with hermit balancing, but as it's much more from a fighting game and live service model point of view, I wouldn't say it applies one to one with zero-k. One of the main points is that a balancing team does not exist to create 'perfect balance', but the things in the picture, a fine quote summarizing it is approximately "game tuning is more of an artform than a science" while reiterating all the things you've probably heard before if you watch a lot of GDC game balance/player feedback talks.
+6 / -0
21 days ago
the Magpie ordeal clearly taught no one in these community anything about balance hunh

+1 / -0
21 days ago
belief does play a part in things..

as for the above i also suspect that the gun skin that did not change weapon stats may have cost a bit of money and attracted better players wich is reflected in the higher k/d ratio

and likewise i also suspect that the nerf to the LOL knight had some pro players running there second avoiding the nerf until they get more feedback.. lowering the skill average for the player pool without even knowing it wasnt nerfed
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21 days ago
quote:
belief does play a part in things..


You clearly haven't either watched the video or read Steel_Blue's post.
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i did read his post and again i did mean what i said.. i have my own reasons to do so and if you prefer to regard me as ignorant then thats ok too =) .. i do understand the placebo effects mentioned.

however i actualy agree with you in part as i did say what i said for reasons not directly connected to the post made by steelblue
however my statement is inextricably linked and grounded in the unfathomable depthes of my own understandings. so im sorry.
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I think you can describe it as vibes but I prefer to call it "Balance Design Goals".
A game starts with a vision. A vision for gameplay among other things.

Tangents will be in the spoiler tags.

[Spoiler]

However, balancing something as complex as an RTS is very hard.
Often it will done iteratively over several years.
[Spoiler]

RTS are particularly hard to balance because they are supposed to remain strategically deep even at high levels of play after years of play.
If one unit or strategy remains dominant for too long, it can be argued that it should be nerfed for the strategic depth of the game.

Is Zero-K perfectly balanced?
Every player has the same starting options available so the answer is yes.
But don't players choose commander chassis, factory and starting position before the game starts? That is true. Zero-K is not perfectly balanced. Those are basically blind choices made before you start the game and before you know what your opponent is doing.
Factory choice in 1v1 can be compared to a race in Starcraft or a civilization in Age of Empires.
Is every factory balanced to every other factory? No. Some factories are simple better on some maps like civilizations in Age of Empires 2 are better on some types of maps.
Okey. But at least mirror match-ups are balanced in Zero-K, right?
No. Even though mirror match-ups are perfectly balanced they might not be balanced in strategic depth.
The current strength of Hermit would be an example where it hurts the strategic depth of Zero-K.
Is Hermit overpowered on all maps and in all match-ups? No.
Is Hermit overpowered on some hilly maps and in a spider mirror? I would argue yes, but this would be on so called "vibes" or balance design goals.
There is still some strategy on a map like Ravaged in a spider mirror where the expansion patterns matter and you want to use Fleas, Venoms, or Redback before you start spamming Hermit. However, once you are on Hermit and have them on autoretreat and repair them, there is little reason to do anything else.
[Spoiler]

I would argue that Hermit takes up too much strategic space at the cost of too many other units. It is simply too good and kinda boring as a skill expression.
It can be argued that some maps or match-ups being dominated by singular gameplay strategies is not all that bad.
In Total Annihilation, large open maps like Comet Catcher was typically dominated by light rovers/tanks/raiders like Weasel(Dart in Zero-K) and Flash(like Scorcher in Zero-K), and people are still playing those maps in TA to this day.
Escalating beyond that is only a reward you could get in really close games or if you already were far ahead already.
I think mono raider gameplay is much more fun in comparison to monohermit in spider mirrors.

Glaiveman will you have you convinced that cloaky factory is peak but that cloaky vs cloaky is still a boring match-up because it is just a mirror matchup or something.
+6 / -0
I absolutely agree with all of that, except we're not given examples of 1v1 in which hermits overperform. What we're given is team games that are harder to evaluate because they can end any number of ways, as opposed to 1v1 in which usually one player somehow manages to get a slight edge due to execution or strategy, and then spends that edge snowballing.

Your argument seems to be that once you start to snowball hermits in 1v1, it's an unreasonably safe option. Okay. I can go with that. But instead looking at examples provided, it's a lot of one player in a small or even large team game is spamming hermits and their side won, which really means nothing.

If the only nerf is to hermit regen, the large teams players can probably still spam hermit in the exact same way they curently do with almost the same level of success as their hemits now have to walk all the way to the retreat zone instead of some arbitrary distance for enough regen to kick in for free.

Some players suggest a nerf to the hermit's plasma cannon bullet speed because they don't like how hermits can hit raiders. To that I'd argue that in a post hermit nerf world, they could just swap for knights. Unless the terrain forbids it they'll achieve the same performance hermits currently reach execept they will always hit raiders instead of sometimes, but nobody does that. I don't know of any player that has halberds or ravagers on 65% retreat. Why not?

If nerfing hermits somehow appeases large teams players even though I think it'll change nothing on that front, then it should probably be done. At least it helps 1v1s and small teams if there is truth to the snowball argument.
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20 days ago
Sure, nerfing regen doesn't affect large teamgames that much because large teamgames often escalates quickly beyond the point where Hermits actually have the time to retreat before they die. You can typically also use your allies frontline caretakers to repair the Hermits and the front is more static in large teamgames.
I set Ravagers to 65% retreat very often. It is useful to help cycle Ravagers out of combat.
Halberds is a little more all or nothing affair. Typically you need to get close to the target to do reliable damage and you don't usually want your Halberds to turn around just as you are about to finish that high value target.
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