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Lotus Forest Why

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2 years ago
quote:
Not sure how lotus forests could be a consequence of superfluid though. (and honestly they perplex me, I don't understand why they don't get skirmed to death)


The last meaningful change to Lotus was a 5% dps buff on Mar 5 2020, but that more or less coincided with the rest of the superfluid changes, so is meaningless on its own as well.

Is this just a fad?
+1 / -0


2 years ago
Lotus forests grow in proportion to the enemy factory soil nutrient density.

For example, if the enemy is hovers - this is lotus forest fertile ground because it's a pain in the ass to deal with for them (no light skirm, scalpel gets hurt). If the enemy is shieldbots, not so much.

I think their prevalence is overstated, and even when done - often done where better metal expendatures exist.
+2 / -0
>most raiders get minor nerf over 2 years on top of being mangeled by superfluid
>cons get nerfs
>artillery gets marginally slower across the board (and not just in move speed)
>higher tier porc gets repeated nerfs
>all the commanders get infinitely stronger as a solo fighting unit, but get some individual nerfs later on; engi gets a buff
>lotus forests appear
>suprised pikachu face
+6 / -0

2 years ago
when i came up with this, it was a purely subjective statement. Superfluid i think is about 1.5 years old now? I have not played 1v1 in the meantime exept for occasional tests or mumble-intern training, so:
I am relying on my memory of pre-superfluid 1v1s. That memory could be wrong and altered by my biased brain.

Just saying that before someone accuses me of presenting false facts.
+1 / -0
2 years ago
Lotus is just an insanely efficient unit compared to any other porc, and most units and with engi comm and priority being a thing, well....

The Lotus forest has really happened the last month or so, and wasn't as prevalent before that. My opinion is that the past few patches broke the raider interactions with changes to duck(dominant), kodachi(dominant) and scorcher(no longer even with kodachi), really accentuating raider RPS. If you lose this raider RPS, the best solution then seems to be to play defensive, make riots and lotus.
+6 / -0

2 years ago
Picket forests died with superfluid (most raiders +1 shot to kill, massive nerf) so Lotus forests just took over. Making a Picket just outside Lotus range may still be viable but then you're left with a Picket.
+4 / -0

2 years ago
To me Lotus has always been a no brainer.

Game after game I keep repeating "lotus in base" and nubs never listen, and get their base destroyed by a single pyro.

I'll tell you why I use Lotus:

1) It's very efficient. For a measly 90 metal you get a static unit with good damage and a decent range, that can be put behind tough buildings like solars to enhance its effectiveness.

2) Lotus secures your expansion. There's nothing worse than grinding forward and suddenly your big heavies get cut down by a bunch of glaives and you get chased back to your starting position. Securing the advance with lines of lotus provides not only a fallback line but also hampers light unit swarms from simply screaming back up into your territory in a counterattack.

3) Lotus is good for porc push. Because they pop up so fast you can even advance against pickets with them by building them inside the picket radius of fire. I've often had commander vs commander fights determined by my popping lotus up faster.

4) There seems to be a sudden prevelance for using swarms of fleas again. A pair of lotus can eat a bunch of fleas for breakfast and they nicely complement ranged units that find themsleves swarmed by them. In fact ranged units + lotus are quite effective I find.

5) Lotus works well with other statics like faraday. A couple of faraday become a lethal obstacle with the addition of 2 lotus. 180 extra metal buys you an awful lot of protection against base drops and short ranged units.

Finally: Lotus can help fight air units to some extent. Stuff like Locust becomes much less effective at raiding when Lotus are dotting bases, and gnats can be killed off before comnappings are completed.

TLDR: Lotus is very efficient at many roles and costs little. Build lotus.
+8 / -0


2 years ago
I think because commander was buffed so (too) much
+1 / -0
2 years ago
Am I an authority on lotus forestry? I need to know that before I take the effort to think about it.
+1 / -0
2 years ago
"Am I an authority on lotus forestry? I need to know that before I take the effort to think about it. "

Yes you are...


"Making a Picket just outside Lotus range may still be viable but then you're left with a Picket. "

This is exactly the only thing I (occasianally because there often better options) use picket for.

I meant to ask Randy after I specced one of his games and saw him use it occasinally, but Ill ask everyone now, what makes you ever prefer picket over lotus or stinger. Especially dont understand picket grouping, like if you build 4 or more why not build stinger or popup gauss instead?.
If you just build one there is simply no dmg and I think except for fleas and darts any 2 raiders will wreck it, it is not a defense if it doesnt stop anything.
Lotus has better dps, stinger has better range and dps per cost and if you want the vision just build a radar instead...

Isnt part of the answer to this thread question simply low picket use = high lotus use, simply because they both occupy the same spot of cheap and more importantly quickly buildable static def, i.e. unless you have a lvl 4 engi com theyre the only options of a com or con to quickly reinforce the position theyre at.
+2 / -0

2 years ago
quote:

what makes you ever prefer picket over lotus or stinger.


Picket looks better.
+1 / -0

2 years ago
Picket kills small things faster and is more reliable as flex-aa. It is good at stopping snitch-drops.

Comparison 4 pickets with Stinger:

- Less overkill damage, aka if 2 light units enter, both die the pickets while in case of stinger one of them would have longer time to retreat.
- Gradual loss of dps in case of pickets (like 1 gets killed, but the 3 others stay functional) - stinger keeps full dps until destruction

Anyway, I personally never build picket. I try to spend as little as possible into static-defense.
+1 / -0


2 years ago
quote:
Am I an authority on lotus forestry

You are its harbinger.
+1 / -0
2 years ago
Commanders pushing up to your base has trended for the past year already. Thanks to the nonstop anti-snipe buffs a commander surrounded by his lotus sidearm is a very hard target to deal with in the early game.

For many factories cost-effectively killing lotus takes immense amounts of qwop (burn apm into ronin retreat) or their artillery is static-only and slow to work, making lotus stellar at stalling with eco advantage and forcing out investment into noncombatants.
Other factories enjoy skirmishers that outrange lotus, or artillery-riot-skirmishers that retain some or all performance against mobiles. In turn, lotus gardening provides these units a safe haven to retreat into regardless of the rest of your army positioning.

Once at an advantage solidifying your position with such an investment is incredibly safe compared to donating value against defenders hiding in porc.
+2 / -0
I think the forestry comes from the fact that early expansion are spearheaded by the (engi) comm. Then another front opens where normal units fight and roam. Engi comm simply can't control himself, he NEEDS them build. Engi is all alone, it's a scary world, he needs his tree friends. If it's problematic: bring variety to the opening part of the game (because the meta is rather fixed in bringing engi or jump comm out) or make lotus more expensive.

Oh what Fine says. I actually wrote something very similar but scrapped it.
+3 / -0
2 years ago
Also comms are weak against groups. What isn't weak against groups? A group of llts.
+1 / -0


2 years ago
quote:
For many factories cost-effectively killing lotus takes immense amounts of qwop (burn apm into ronin retreat)

Just use retreat zones?
+1 / -0
I wonder if Stardust nerf added to this. Earlier Stardust was scary to every attacking unit, as it would pump massive DPS into you until killed. Now it is a danger for a short while, then not so much. As a player who likes massed assaults, and rarely uses skirms, now the most scary light defense is Lotus forest with some Faradays in. And as defending player this + Gauss on spire seems like optimal defense.
+6 / -0

2 years ago
i, too, dont understand stardust. i even build quake more.
+1 / -0

2 years ago
PLrankRafalpluk makes a good point. In the past when I would have built a stardust I'll rather just build 3 lotus. Costs slightly more but you get extra range and no cooldown. Stardust is just sad now.
+5 / -0
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