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Shieldbots vs Jumpbots 1v1

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16 months ago
I've had a very tough time trying to fight against Jumpbots when playing Shieldbots in 1v1

It seems like the jumpbot fac has a big advantage over shields in general due to its unconventional attacking modes
The biggest culprit seems to the Firewalker, which hard counters anything with a shield.

The Jack can jump inside shields to easily kill whatever's inside, and I'm pretty sure the Jugglenaut can pull through shields to dismantle shieldballs one by one

Eraser + Snitches is pretty good against a lot of the jumpfac's stuff, but once the Firewalkers start shooting, the napalm on the ground tends to set off the snitches before they can get to their target.

Shieldbot has a strong raider in the Bandit, but Pyro seems to do well (not fantastic, but holds its own well) against Bandits. Moderator also 1-hits bandits with only about 30% overkill, which seems relevant.

It seems like in every 1v1 matchup like this, once the game progresses past the all-raider stage, I have no good answers to most of what the jumpbot player throws at me. Is the only solution for this matchup to facswitch out?
+0 / -0
or build amphi fac for build lobster.
with lobster jump on firewalker with your shied bot and is dead
+1 / -0
Bandit is borderline unusable versus both pyro and venom to the point that I would heavily advise against plopping the factory on maps where either are even somewhat likely to appear.


If you do survive raider phase propped up by lotus and snitch, I think shield is one of the few factories capable of resisting placeholder-moderator compositions with rogue. And unlike spiders, they can survive firewalker thanks to aspis.


Off larger advantages, burying jumpbot in felon, maybe enhanced with lobster, mostly works. Following up jacks draining the shieldball isnt easy for jump, and racketeers will work against low numbers well.
+3 / -0
Worth noting that lobstered shieldballs is the ultimate late game unit composition. Very little can stand against it.

quote:
The biggest culprit seems to the Firewalker, which hard counters anything with a shield.


Do you mean without a shield?
+4 / -0
I've always considered jumpbots the strongest factory, but with the highest learning curve and micro demands - especially when you morph a cornea or aegis to join its army. Jacks, Pyros, Juggs, and even Placeholders require intense micro to use well.

A shield ball is strong, easy to understand, and does not really require as much micro. Of course, as you state, Juggs, Firewalkers, and to a lesser extent Placeholders and Jacks - do counter shieldballs with enough micro.

You really need to minimize your unit losses while forcing the jump player to do more micro than you do so you have micro left over to out-eco and raid.
+1 / -0
15 months ago
Wait so re: Aspis

It's been my experience that Firewalker does really well against large area shields. It seems like groups of firewalkers are able to shut down equivalent cost in Aspis shields with just 2 or 3 shots each. The ZK wiki page for Firewalker even says "shieldballs have it much worse than usual, since the Firewalker's incendiary mortars can somewhat penetrate through shields"

Am I using them wrong?
+0 / -0

15 months ago
1 firewalker can out-dps the regen of a single aspis/agis. But when you pair up some extra shield linkage, probably just 1 thug, then there's no penetration as long as we're talking about a spherical cow in a vacuum. Thugs alone can just stand still in a ball and take no fire damage, and they can afford to take some groundfire damage to advance into porc. You can also let the shield regen out of the line of fire for a while so you can take advantage of maximum damage absorption.
+1 / -0
13 months ago
I had another shieldbots vs jumpbots matchup where I completely faceplanted again:

http://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/1727095

In this one I don't even get out of the raider phase. yert527 completely shuts me down and wins with only pyros. We had roughly equivalent eco and army value for the first couple minutes - but I didn't have anything that could handle pryos.

Is it possible for shield bots to play against early game pyro? outlaws don't even help - the pyro has longer range than the outlaw!

I made one snitch, but it was too early game to get the cloaker up that would let me actually use it. Pryo easily kills an uncloaked approaching snitch. So that didn't feel like an option.

I know Felons do pretty well against Pyros - but the Felon is super slow, so I'd have to force a confrontation at a specific point, that'd have to be my base and not theirs because otherwise the pyros just go around - so building a Felon that early game puts me too much on the back foot I think.

Racketeer maybe? Is there an early game solution to getting stomped by Pyros as shield bots?

(there was a 64_bit_dragon cast of one my games recently where I suffered the same fate at the hands of Logix)
+0 / -0
13 months ago
For the most part you just got outecoed that game, at one point he had like 800 army value more in a short game like that.

2 Bandits beat a pyro, you used clumped movements instead of spread out line movement, so 1 pyro could damage multiple bandits at once. Also the attack at his base was basically a pure metal donation.
+0 / -0
13 months ago
This is a very good matchup for shields I feel, IF you survive the raider phase against pyro. Bandit isn't great at chasing down a pyro so imo the best strategy seems to be to expand fast with convict supported by bandit. It is important to be aware of pyro tricks like jumping into base and shooting through terrain. I would say avoid bandit vs pyro engagements completely unless you sure you can win.

Once you survive the raider phase it gets really nice for shields. Simply spam felon and thugs and this counters most of the factory. Don't over commit and always be careful when dealing with jacks. Firewalker is very bad against shields.

Even if you are slightly behind in expansion it dosen't matter as shields can easily comeback.
+0 / -0
13 months ago
wait - 2 bandits kills a pyro? I've NEVER seen that happen.

I was trying to spread the bandits out using line move - I guess I didn't spread them far enough?

The problem I've seen with bandits vs. pyro is that when 2 or 3 bandits encounters a pyro, the pyro kills one of them then jumps back. so the pyro gets an attrition advantage over the smaller bandits using its jump, even if it can't hold its ground against multiple bandits.
+0 / -0
13 months ago
no, 2 bandits do NOT kill a pyro. in a head on fight maybe, but not if the pyro is microd carefull and stays out of the bandits range
+0 / -0
13 months ago
that also means pyro cant push they either fight and die to 2 bandits or cant deal damage
+0 / -0
At the time of this post I have not yet reviewed the battle posted. However, I will add my 2 cents.

Pyro is a superior raider to bandit, and should be treated as such. 4:1 bandit-pyro ratio is good but avoid clumping or pyro will kill.

Shield has no true riot, which means expanding as shield is problematic. I would suggest, in my experiences against people with better raiding skills than oneself, to invest more into Lotus rather than bandits.

Remember the disadvantages of porc:

Cannot move, ergo cannot attack.

Advantage:
Better stats for cost.

The disadvantage of not moving is irrelevant if having more raiders is not beneficial - namely, if you would lose 2 bandits for no gain just invest in lotus.

Do not neglect bandits, but rather, focus more on static defense and use bandits to defend key points such as mexes or base, and try to fight within porc to minimize losses. You will expand slower but it is better than not expanding against an opponent with better raiding skills/raiders.

This way you avoid crippling raids in the early game. Lotus does not scale well, but by that point you shohld be past pyro raids.

Mid and late game shield has good chances to win. Rogues drastically outrange moderator, which means attrition free kills, and are of help against Jack and Jugglenaut: Both units are quite slow.

ThugFelon should be kept in reserve, but piling them up is not the best idea, because Jacks will drain felon and thug shield, leaving them weak to anything that shoots at them. Instead, have enough felonthug to deter pyro attacks and invest more into rogues, which crush any attempt at skirmishing that jump can bring.

If you do go felonthug, which is a fair choice, bring bandits to prevent jacks from wiping out felon.

Go slow and build up. Shield's entire gameplan is to get so big, tanky, and have enough firepower likho can be shot from the sky, mino hp is drained within seconds and no amount of porc stops it. This cannot be done if shield is taking losses on the attack.

+1 / -0
13 months ago
Double_Helix_DNA what about Jugglenaut plus moderators? thug+felon won't ahve enough dps to kill jugg while jugg pulls units back. they die to body damage and mods can pick them off from far away. (i think the main reason jump vs shield is a bad matchup is because mods do 3x damage to shields)
+0 / -0