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I got started on a neonstorm in this thread: http://zero-k.info/Forum/Thread/20470?postId=144904
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I got started on a neonstorm in this thread: http://zero-k.info/Forum/Thread/20470?postId=144904
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It got so out of hand that I moved it here.
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It got so out of hand that I moved it here.
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[b]Intro[/b]
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[spoiler]
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[b]The Current Scorpion:[/b]
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[b]The Current Scorpion:[/b]
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I think it meets all the balance criteria. It's not even close to the same as a dante, and while there's some surface similarity to ulti the use case is very different. Ulti is pretty close to a kamikaze, and is designed to scale with opposing unit weight (three have a good chance of killing a detri, but have trouble vs. like 10 fleas). You get them into a position for them to make mad cost then sacrifice them to put a hole in opposing strider production. A scorpion is an attrition generator that is supposed to be kept alive, and is more like a reaper in this respect. Being AT also effects what it can hit, and the number of viable retreat paths it has - AT plays more of a part in scorpion design than it does in most other units.
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I think it meets all the balance criteria. It's not even close to the same as a dante, and while there's some surface similarity to ulti the use case is very different. Ulti is pretty close to a kamikaze, and is designed to scale with opposing unit weight (three have a good chance of killing a detri, but have trouble vs. like 10 fleas). You get them into a position for them to make mad cost then sacrifice them to put a hole in opposing strider production. A scorpion is an attrition generator that is supposed to be kept alive, and is more like a reaper in this respect. Being AT also effects what it can hit, and the number of viable retreat paths it has - AT plays more of a part in scorpion design than it does in most other units.
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It also fits pretty damn well into its theme. It's got AT, invis, multiple attack types, status effect, preys on smaller creatures while merely impeding larger ones while it escapes, they're pretty independent, and they can remain dormant for a while. It literally feels like they're 'hunting' for prey, since you have no intention of losing it and you're doing the cost/benefit analysis on risks taken vs. prey size etc. The scorpion preys on isolated units that aren't substantially larger than itself.
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It also fits pretty damn well into its theme. It's got AT, invis, multiple attack types, status effect, preys on smaller creatures while merely impeding larger ones while it escapes, they're pretty independent, and they can remain dormant for a while. It literally feels like they're 'hunting' for prey, since you have no intention of losing it and you're doing the cost/benefit analysis on risks taken vs. prey size etc. The scorpion preys on isolated units that aren't substantially larger than itself.
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[b]The All New Scorpion[/b]
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[b]The All New Scorpion[/b]
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My idea for the new scorpion takes inspiration both from its current iteration, while trying to more accurately portray the role of a scorpion in the wilderness. Strengths are buffed, weaknesses are nerfed, mechanics are introduced. These ideas are designed to work together, but I doubt they’ll all make the final cut if any changes do end up being made. Most wouldn't require a large overhaul, but versions that include drones start looking a lot different.
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My idea for the new scorpion takes inspiration both from its current iteration, while trying to more accurately portray the role of a scorpion in the wilderness. Strengths are buffed, weaknesses are nerfed, mechanics are introduced. These ideas are designed to work together, but I doubt they’ll all make the final cut if any changes do end up being made. Most wouldn't require a large overhaul, but versions that include drones start looking a lot different.
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Goals:
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Goals:
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+ thematic congruence
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+ thematic congruence
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+ balance
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+ balance
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+ fun
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+ fun
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+ depth
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+ depth
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+ distinguish scorpion as a unique strider
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+ distinguish scorpion as a unique strider
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+ information game
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+ information game
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+ increase internal synergy (without increasing external synergy)
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+ increase internal synergy (without increasing external synergy)
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+ emphasise decision making
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+ emphasise decision making
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[/spoiler]
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[b]Weapon
Loadout[/b]
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[spoiler]
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[b]Kit[/b]
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[b]Kit[/b]
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Currently the claws are precision dps, the tail is single target paralysation, and the dgun is fullblown AoE heavy EMP damage. The scorpion also has a cloak and all-terrain ability. Let’s map that:
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Currently the claws are precision dps, the tail is single target paralysation, and the dgun is fullblown AoE heavy EMP damage. The scorpion also has a cloak and all-terrain ability. Let’s map that:
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Dgun: deals large EMP damage in an area. Will stun all low-medium weight units. High weight units are more likely to be stunned the larger and slower they are, up to a maximum of 20k HP (basically everything but bantha and detri, as well as massed funnels from outside of shield).
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Dgun: deals large EMP damage in an area. Will stun all low-medium weight units. High weight units are more likely to be stunned the larger and slower they are, up to a maximum of 20k HP (basically everything but bantha and detri, as well as massed funnels from outside of shield).
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Claws: deal decent damage very precisely. Especially good vs. fast low weight units, but deal less damage for cost than other less accurate weapons when against immobile targets.
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Claws: deal decent damage very precisely. Especially good vs. fast low weight units, but deal less damage for cost than other less accurate weapons when against immobile targets.
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Tail: deals same dps as a single claw, but with an extra 500 EMP a second. Can hit behind scorpion. Good for keeping stunlock after dgun.
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Tail: deals same dps as a single claw, but with an extra 500 EMP a second. Can hit behind scorpion. Good for keeping stunlock after dgun.
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All-terrain: is able to circumvent many armies and defences to better isolate targets.
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All-terrain: is able to circumvent many armies and defences to better isolate targets.
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Cloak: is able deprive opponents of information including warning. Able to be used to escape after not being hit for a while. Scales well with AT, dgun, and stunlock.
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Cloak: is able deprive opponents of information including warning. Able to be used to escape after not being hit for a while. Scales well with AT, dgun, and stunlock.
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So there’s some synergy, but also some things I don’t understand. Current design also sort of stumbles in on itself thematically. I’ll cover theme then synergy with special guest star quant’s rule.
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So there’s some synergy, but also some things I don’t understand. Current design also sort of stumbles in on itself thematically. I’ll cover theme then synergy with special guest star quant’s rule.
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In the wild, a scorpion has multiple means of attack, but whatever initially works transitions into the next thing working. If it lands a claw the sting will now come in to finish. If the sting lands and they slow down the scorpion can then land a claw. It’s like if you’re pub brawling 2v1, whichever way it goes down, you probably want one of you to hold them still while the other one pummels. The claws however are primarily for keeping them still, despite their versatility in this sense. To have them as pure dps doesn’t seem reasonable.
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In the wild, a scorpion has multiple means of attack, but whatever initially works transitions into the next thing working. If it lands a claw the sting will now come in to finish. If the sting lands and they slow down the scorpion can then land a claw. It’s like if you’re pub brawling 2v1, whichever way it goes down, you probably want one of you to hold them still while the other one pummels. The claws however are primarily for keeping them still, despite their versatility in this sense. To have them as pure dps doesn’t seem reasonable.
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They both lack synergy, and buff weakness while nerfing strength. They are precision damage strapped on to a body that specialises in holding things still. They are riot weapons on a unit that is supposed to fear light units.
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They both lack synergy, and buff weakness while nerfing strength. They are precision damage strapped on to a body that specialises in holding things still. They are riot weapons on a unit that is supposed to fear light units.
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IMO the claws are fine, and scorpion is fine. The balance is great. But it doesn’t make as much sense as it should.
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IMO the claws are fine, and scorpion is fine. The balance is great. But it doesn’t make as much sense as it should.
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My scorpion would have the claws for holding them still with zeuscannons that could very well be identical in specs to its current tail.
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My scorpion would have the claws for holding them still with zeuscannons that could very well be identical in specs to its current tail.
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The tail and dgun are then amalgamated into a single attack originating from the tail: a dgun that causes enormous single target slow (16000 ballpark) and moderate dps, with a 5 second cooldown. The reason I think slow is a good idea is because it actually synergises with EMP in that it will keep them there long enough to get the stun off, but won’t help you actually finish them any quicker. I think 16000 is a good number because slow is not as powerful as EMP when you’re talking such large numbers. The advantage of having a linearly stacking effect is entirely discounted by all but the largest opponents, leaving you with a debuff this is approximately half as powerful as full EMP. On top of which, it does nothing once EMP is achieved. So we’ve managed to build on the idea of a self-reliant paralysing ambusher without giving it large burst. It’s entirely unlike skuttle/ulti as opponents are able to react after you engage, their unit is only stuck not dead. It’s also unlike other debuff supports in that it doesn’t immediately incapacitate anything, nor does it require other units to finish opponents off. Your scorpion spots weakness, engages at an opportune time, there is then a brutal struggle whereby the scorpion slowly incapacitates them and proceeds to take them apart over time. Once the target is locked down, the scorpion needs time to finish them, but its tail is now free to dissuade attackers while it finishes. This shit is primal.
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The tail and dgun are then amalgamated into a single attack originating from the tail: a dgun that causes enormous single target slow (16000 ballpark) and moderate dps, with a 5 second cooldown. The reason I think slow is a good idea is because it actually synergises with EMP in that it will keep them there long enough to get the stun off, but won’t help you actually finish them any quicker. I think 16000 is a good number because slow is not as powerful as EMP when you’re talking such large numbers. The advantage of having a linearly stacking effect is entirely discounted by all but the largest opponents, leaving you with a debuff this is approximately half as powerful as full EMP. On top of which, it does nothing once EMP is achieved. So we’ve managed to build on the idea of a self-reliant paralysing ambusher without giving it large burst. It’s entirely unlike skuttle/ulti as opponents are able to react after you engage, their unit is only stuck not dead. It’s also unlike other debuff supports in that it doesn’t immediately incapacitate anything, nor does it require other units to finish opponents off. Your scorpion spots weakness, engages at an opportune time, there is then a brutal struggle whereby the scorpion slowly incapacitates them and proceeds to take them apart over time. Once the target is locked down, the scorpion needs time to finish them, but its tail is now free to dissuade attackers while it finishes. This shit is primal.
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These changes would fix the role confusion of having riot weapons on a unit that’s supposed to have difficulty vs. raiders that manage to find it. It would have better thematic consistency with the original material. It would have greater internal synergy. It would increase its strength (brawling and incapacitating foes), while nerfing its weaknesses (massed light units). It would further distinguish it from infiltrator in role. It would also get rid of the overlap between dguns on scorpion, thunderbird, and bantha.
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These changes would fix the role confusion of having riot weapons on a unit that’s supposed to have difficulty vs. raiders that manage to find it. It would have better thematic consistency with the original material. It would have greater internal synergy. It would increase its strength (brawling and incapacitating foes), while nerfing its weaknesses (massed light units). It would further distinguish it from infiltrator in role. It would also get rid of the overlap between dguns on scorpion, thunderbird, and bantha.
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It also more clearly establishes its niche while not being a herpderp counter. Slow and EMP are good against large units, but the scorpion itself will be hardpressed to take stuff like bantha and detri, since the slow will be partial and the emp is unlikely to ever land. The scorpions stands alone in that it really needs to pick its battles when ambushing – most other ambushers are just looking for the biggest thing they can kill/stun one hit. Scorpion success is more based on gross opponent troop movements and reactivity, rather than getting a single shot off.
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It also more clearly establishes its niche while not being a herpderp counter. Slow and EMP are good against large units, but the scorpion itself will be hardpressed to take stuff like bantha and detri, since the slow will be partial and the emp is unlikely to ever land. The scorpions stands alone in that it really needs to pick its battles when ambushing – most other ambushers are just looking for the biggest thing they can kill/stun one hit. Scorpion success is more based on gross opponent troop movements and reactivity, rather than getting a single shot off.
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[/spoiler]
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[b]Stealth and Sensory[/b]
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[spoiler]
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[b]Sensory: [/b]
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[b]Sensory: [/b]
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I don't know what its current specs are now, but I think it would be badass to cut its LoS, and give it a relatively short range radar like weaver. Maybe even give it reduced radar wobble to represent its tripwire/motiondetection/vibration 'mechanic'. Also, I know it would be new ground for ZK, but if it had some way to detect stealth that would both be highly thematic and also increase its uniqueness. I'm thinking a hunter type strider that is still relatively slow, but elusive using both stealth and AT to make it difficult to kill (as it does now). The person using the scorpion is kept in the dark a little by cutting its LoS and having to rely on radar in hilly terrain to find targets/spot predators. This would encourage people to think more about limiting opposing radar. If it can somehow detect invis, fleas that are buried are somewhat avoidable, but active flea screens still work as normal. Of course the scorpion could be supported by spotters, but represents both a weakness (these things can die), and a flag to your opponent the scorpion is nearby.
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I don't know what its current specs are now, but I think it would be badass to cut its LoS, and give it a relatively short range radar like weaver. Maybe even give it reduced radar wobble to represent its tripwire/motiondetection/vibration 'mechanic'. Also, I know it would be new ground for ZK, but if it had some way to detect stealth that would both be highly thematic and also increase its uniqueness. I'm thinking a hunter type strider that is still relatively slow, but elusive using both stealth and AT to make it difficult to kill (as it does now). The person using the scorpion is kept in the dark a little by cutting its LoS and having to rely on radar in hilly terrain to find targets/spot predators. This would encourage people to think more about limiting opposing radar. If it can somehow detect invis, fleas that are buried are somewhat avoidable, but active flea screens still work as normal. Of course the scorpion could be supported by spotters, but represents both a weakness (these things can die), and a flag to your opponent the scorpion is nearby.
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If the scorpion is found before it does the finding, it's not fast or durable for cost, so it uses it's stuns and slows to confound enemies while it tries to get its cloak running once more.
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If the scorpion is found before it does the finding, it's not fast or durable for cost, so it uses it's stuns and slows to confound enemies while it tries to get its cloak running once more.
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Seismic sensors could be good too, in fact they'd likely be better than radar. I know EvoRTS had them and they worked well. I don't know if they're against ZK's goals though. Either way, strider class units are the best time to make an exception.
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Seismic sensors could be good too, in fact they'd likely be better than radar. I know EvoRTS had them and they worked well. I don't know if they're against ZK's goals though. Either way, strider class units are the best time to make an exception.
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[b]Invisibility:[/b]
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[b]Invisibility:[/b]
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Scorpions are ambushers, and that's how it plays out right now, but I think this could be exemplified. Currently we have walking bombs for ambushes, they cloak when they sit still. That's great for their purposes since an invisible moving bomb would be broken. We also have the walking vs. stationary energy cost on cloaks which is sort of similar, basically increasing the investment required to have a mobile stealth force (which sort of feels clumsy to manage, but IMO is very elegant for balancing and concept). Since scorpions are known for being able to lay dormant without food or oxygen for extended period of time, while also being exceptionally well 'designed' for ambushes, I think we should double up here and make their e cost for stationary stealth zero or near zero. (it's currently 2, which is basically zero for a strider). In contrast, I think its cloaked movement should be very expensive, perhaps up to +30 even. This would encourage it to be an ambusher rather than the equivalent of an AT strider scythe.
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Scorpions are ambushers, and that's how it plays out right now, but I think this could be exemplified. Currently we have walking bombs for ambushes, they cloak when they sit still. That's great for their purposes since an invisible moving bomb would be broken. We also have the walking vs. stationary energy cost on cloaks which is sort of similar, basically increasing the investment required to have a mobile stealth force (which sort of feels clumsy to manage, but IMO is very elegant for balancing and concept). Since scorpions are known for being able to lay dormant without food or oxygen for extended period of time, while also being exceptionally well 'designed' for ambushes, I think we should double up here and make their e cost for stationary stealth zero or near zero. (it's currently 2, which is basically zero for a strider). In contrast, I think its cloaked movement should be very expensive, perhaps up to +30 even. This would encourage it to be an ambusher rather than the equivalent of an AT strider scythe.
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[/spoiler]
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[b]Full Neon Drone Mechanic (apparently Flipstips idea)[/b]
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[spoiler]
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[b]Drone/offspring mechanic:[/b]
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[b]Drone/offspring mechanic:[/b]
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I think a flat drone producing mechanic is bad. It's already done and both of the offending drone striders invite the ire of the big teams room. If we tied it to resources however, it could become a lot more interesting and a lot less painful. I'm thinking of tying it directly to metal, specifically reclaim in the scorpions vicinity (similar to puppy). This idea has been floated before, but I think it has enormous synergy while being thematically congruent.
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I think a flat drone producing mechanic is bad. It's already done and both of the offending drone striders invite the ire of the big teams room. If we tied it to resources however, it could become a lot more interesting and a lot less painful. I'm thinking of tying it directly to metal, specifically reclaim in the scorpions vicinity (similar to puppy). This idea has been floated before, but I think it has enormous synergy while being thematically congruent.
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The scorpion is a hunter, hunters are not soldiers. They go out and kill stuff so they have something to eat. Yes workers can go out and eat wrecks, but the scorpion does not secure the ground meaning usually those wrecks are still heavily contested. If the scorpion can digest these wrecks into something useful while stealthed, this represents an extra factor in the hunt-and-be-hunted game, your opponent will be able to keep an eye on wrecks to clue them into where your scorpion resides.
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The scorpion is a hunter, hunters are not soldiers. They go out and kill stuff so they have something to eat. Yes workers can go out and eat wrecks, but the scorpion does not secure the ground meaning usually those wrecks are still heavily contested. If the scorpion can digest these wrecks into something useful while stealthed, this represents an extra factor in the hunt-and-be-hunted game, your opponent will be able to keep an eye on wrecks to clue them into where your scorpion resides.
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Flat reclaim and rez would be possibly OP/swingy, and unthematic. Scorpions aren't ants.
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Flat reclaim and rez would be possibly OP/swingy, and unthematic. Scorpions aren't ants.
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The scorpion (or at least, my version of the scorpion) does have difficulty spotting stuff, but doesn't want to turn into a cooperator bot. If the highly independent scorpion has friendly units being built for the express purpose of supporting it then it's less a hunter than a soldier. Again, not an ant. If it makes its own bots however, that’s a different story.
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The scorpion (or at least, my version of the scorpion) does have difficulty spotting stuff, but doesn't want to turn into a cooperator bot. If the highly independent scorpion has friendly units being built for the express purpose of supporting it then it's less a hunter than a soldier. Again, not an ant. If it makes its own bots however, that’s a different story.
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So what if the scorpion spawned drones from the metal it devours, but these drones are less for combat than they are for information. They could have paralysis and/or slow for synergy and theme, but they're not really a threat themselves (maybe a flea level dps?). Furthermore, they're not necessarily even that good at scouting, perhaps sharing the same traits as the mother scorp - but the important thing is they screen a little (for units that aren't even necessarily invisible). I think cloak is essential here, but that cloak should cost a lot of e to move, just like I suggested for motherscorp. This would be both consistent with the scorp, while limiting both numbers and use case. If it takes say... 5 energy to move a scorpion drone that costs the equivelent of 50-100 metal, you can't possible use them as a real army. So long as they require stealth to be effective, they can't be moved on mass, thus they either all wait in ambush together (liability), or they do their job as reconnaissance agents (+ mild support).
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So what if the scorpion spawned drones from the metal it devours, but these drones are less for combat than they are for information. They could have paralysis and/or slow for synergy and theme, but they're not really a threat themselves (maybe a flea level dps?). Furthermore, they're not necessarily even that good at scouting, perhaps sharing the same traits as the mother scorp - but the important thing is they screen a little (for units that aren't even necessarily invisible). I think cloak is essential here, but that cloak should cost a lot of e to move, just like I suggested for motherscorp. This would be both consistent with the scorp, while limiting both numbers and use case. If it takes say... 5 energy to move a scorpion drone that costs the equivelent of 50-100 metal, you can't possible use them as a real army. So long as they require stealth to be effective, they can't be moved on mass, thus they either all wait in ambush together (liability), or they do their job as reconnaissance agents (+ mild support).
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[/spoiler]
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[b]Keeping Scorpion Near the Action[/b]
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[spoiler]
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[b]Healing:[/b]
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[b]Healing:[/b]
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One of the current issues with the scorpion is that you want to be near the frontlines, but after every ambush there’s a good chance you need repairs. This is not fun.
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One of the current issues with the scorpion is that you want to be near the frontlines, but after every ambush there’s a good chance you need repairs. This is not fun.
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While being overly durable would be problematic for balance, if the unit is highly motivated to stay still perhaps it could have some powerful idle regen? This would encourage dynamic decision-making where a scorpion can stay close to opportunities while on low health, risking getting caught out and killed, but isn't forced to move back and forth from the repair bay. Also see: independence, dormancy.
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While being overly durable would be problematic for balance, if the unit is highly motivated to stay still perhaps it could have some powerful idle regen? This would encourage dynamic decision-making where a scorpion can stay close to opportunities while on low health, risking getting caught out and killed, but isn't forced to move back and forth from the repair bay. Also see: independence, dormancy.
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This could either be partially or fully shifted to drones. If the scorpion has drones, those drones should play a mostly support role specifically for the scorpion. This way it maintains its independence from the rest of the army, while still meeting the needs that an actual support army would fill. Scorpion offspring sit on the back of the mother, this would be the perfect time for repairs to be done. This would also create some decision-making in where the drones need to be, since you want them both for scouting and repairing (spread vs. clustered). If healing is done via repairs rather than regen it also costs energy. This would create even more e scarcity making decisions more important. The drones could have a small radius BP of 1-2, so you need a few to repair at a decent speed. This BP could be used to hoover too, but it’d be inefficient compared to workers. Repairing would be clumsy with current cloak interaction however.
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This could either be partially or fully shifted to drones. If the scorpion has drones, those drones should play a mostly support role specifically for the scorpion. This way it maintains its independence from the rest of the army, while still meeting the needs that an actual support army would fill. Scorpion offspring sit on the back of the mother, this would be the perfect time for repairs to be done. This would also create some decision-making in where the drones need to be, since you want them both for scouting and repairing (spread vs. clustered). If healing is done via repairs rather than regen it also costs energy. This would create even more e scarcity making decisions more important. The drones could have a small radius BP of 1-2, so you need a few to repair at a decent speed. This BP could be used to hoover too, but it’d be inefficient compared to workers. Repairing would be clumsy with current cloak interaction however.
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Alternatively the reclaim could be hoovered into the scorpions health pool directly, and when at full it begins drone production instead. This is a decent parallel to how it works in the wild.
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93 |
Alternatively the reclaim could be hoovered into the scorpions health pool directly, and when at full it begins drone production instead. This is a decent parallel to how it works in the wild.
|
|
|
94 |
[/spoiler]
|
| 80 |
\n
|
95 |
\n
|
| 81 |
[b]Summary[/b]
|
96 |
[b]Summary[/b]
|
| 82 |
\n
|
97 |
\n
|
| 83 |
[b]Balance[/b]
|
98 |
[b]Balance[/b]
|
| 84 |
\n
|
99 |
\n
|
| 85 |
The proposed scorpion loses:
|
100 |
The proposed scorpion loses:
|
| 86 |
- Burst stun
|
101 |
- Burst stun
|
| 87 |
- AoE dgun
|
102 |
- AoE dgun
|
| 88 |
- Precision weapons
|
103 |
- Precision weapons
|
| 89 |
- LoS
|
104 |
- LoS
|
| 90 |
- Cheap cloaking
|
105 |
- Cheap cloaking
|
| 91 |
\n
|
106 |
\n
|
| 92 |
But gains:
|
107 |
But gains:
|
| 93 |
+ Large reusable slowing weapon
|
108 |
+ Large reusable slowing weapon
|
| 94 |
+ Radar or Tremor Sense
|
109 |
+ Radar or Tremor Sense
|
| 95 |
+ A healing mechanic
|
110 |
+ A healing mechanic
|
| 96 |
+ A reclaim mechanic and an interesting means of mitigating LoS loss
|
111 |
+ A reclaim mechanic and an interesting means of mitigating LoS loss
|
| 97 |
\n
|
112 |
\n
|
| 98 |
[b]Theme and Intention[/b]
|
113 |
[b]Theme and Intention[/b]
|
| 99 |
The proposed scorpion would better parallel real life scorpions, as well as being more conceptually clear, but also has more going on than the old one. Having drones as a truly secondary feature of a strider is afaik yet untested, as usually the effect is so powerful that it overshadows anything else the strider can do.
|
114 |
The proposed scorpion would better parallel real life scorpions, as well as being more conceptually clear, but also has more going on than the old one. Having drones as a truly secondary feature of a strider is afaik yet untested, as usually the effect is so powerful that it overshadows anything else the strider can do.
|
| 100 |
\n
|
115 |
\n
|
| 101 |
I am aware that the current iteration of the scorpion strider is fine, and that there are other areas that are higher priority. I’d be surprised if this went anywhere, but it’d be a shame to flesh out the ideas so much then not share it.
|
116 |
I am aware that the current iteration of the scorpion strider is fine, and that there are other areas that are higher priority. I’d be surprised if this went anywhere, but it’d be a shame to flesh out the ideas so much then not share it.
|
| 102 |
\n
|
117 |
\n
|
Refined Scorpion Concept