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[quote]I don't really get this. The combo potential is not especially strong - 580m for 2 units with a combined DPS of 180, middling speed, low range and oversized fragile bodies is never going to fare well against Scalpels or Reapers or Rockos or any number of units that are able to punish fragile short-ranged units. [/quote]
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[quote]I don't really get this. The combo potential is not especially strong - 580m for 2 units with a combined DPS of 180, middling speed, low range and oversized fragile bodies is never going to fare well against Scalpels or Reapers or Rockos or any number of units that are able to punish fragile short-ranged units. [/quote]
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| 2 |
You've ignored the part where Venoms can stunlock anything they get close to (which with 2.7 speed and all-terrain is a lot of things) and then you kill it *without taking casualties*. A ratio of 1 venom to 1 redback is also incorrect, you need more Venoms than that. Once everything is stunned you kill it at your leisure, you don't need all that much DPS for that.
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You've ignored the part where Venoms can stunlock anything they get close to (which with 2.7 speed and all-terrain is a lot of things) and then you kill it *without taking casualties*. A ratio of 1 venom to 1 redback is also incorrect, you need more Venoms than that. Once everything is stunned you kill it at your leisure, you don't need all that much DPS for that.
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| 3 |
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| 4 |
To take your specific examples: I wouldn't play Spider on a map where Scalpel or Reaper can easily kite me. Rocko gets demolished by Recluse, and considering they move slower than Venom I wouldn't even bet that Rocko beats Venom+X under many circumstances.
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To take your specific examples: I wouldn't play Spider on a map where Scalpel or Reaper can easily kite me. Rocko gets demolished by Recluse, and considering they move slower than Venom I wouldn't even bet that Rocko beats Venom+X under many circumstances.
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| 6 |
Venom is weak to things which outrange and outrun it - the unit does have to have a weakness after all. Recluse and later Crabe are very strong answers to such units. Notably, most factories begin the game by building raiders or other short-range units, which Venom straight-up counters.
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Venom is weak to things which outrange and outrun it - the unit does have to have a weakness after all. Recluse and later Crabe are very strong answers to such units. Notably, most factories begin the game by building raiders or other short-range units, which Venom straight-up counters.
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| 8 |
[quote]It could be nice if the combo was made lethal and leaving it to the other factories to find counters for it[/quote]
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[quote]It could be nice if the combo was made lethal and leaving it to the other factories to find counters for it[/quote]
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| 9 |
It's already lethal. Jump simply loses the game against early Venoms unless the map is flat enough that you can make Moderator with a straight face.
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It's already lethal. Jump simply loses the game against early Venoms unless the map is flat enough that you can make Moderator with a straight face.
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| 11 |
[quote]...I think in reality it will always be weak vs air, defences, assaults, skirmishers etc and unlikely to be buffed because spiders have been the weakest fac for a long long time and nobody seems much bothered about it. [/quote]
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[quote]...I think in reality it will always be weak vs air, defences, assaults, skirmishers etc and unlikely to be buffed because spiders have been the weakest fac for a long long time and nobody seems much bothered about it. [/quote]
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| 12 |
I don't think you are up to date on the current metagame. Spiders are frequently played. Comparing with bot movement factories:
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I don't think you are up to date on the current metagame. Spiders are frequently played. Comparing with bot movement factories:
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| 13 |
- IMO Spider is considerably stronger than Cloaky in general at the moment, Scythe and Spectre abuse are about all that factory has going for it.
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- IMO Spider is considerably stronger than Cloaky in general at the moment, Scythe and Spectre abuse are about all that factory has going for it.
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| 14 |
- In a teamgame Shield might contribute a bit more to a team than Spider (on a map flat enough for Shield to be viable), but I'd definitely prefer Spider+Shield over 2xShield on most maps. The 1v1 matchup has some play in it.
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- In a teamgame Shield might contribute a bit more to a team than Spider (on a map flat enough for Shield to be viable), but I'd definitely prefer Spider+Shield over 2xShield on most maps. The 1v1 matchup has some play in it.
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| 15 |
- Jump lives or dies by how many gimmicks it can abuse, so it's difficult to give a direct strength comparison. Spider has a very strong early matchup against Jumps with Venom for what that's worth.
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- Jump lives or dies by how many gimmicks it can abuse, so it's difficult to give a direct strength comparison. Spider has a very strong early matchup against Jumps with Venom for what that's worth.
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| 16 |
- I can't say I remember seeing it played but I suspect Spider has a bad matchup against Amph. Whatever the nature of that matchup is, I reckon Amph is more to blame for it, though.
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- I can't say I remember seeing it played but I suspect Spider has a bad matchup against Amph. Whatever the nature of that matchup is, I reckon Amph is more to blame for it, though.
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| 18 |
Spider has a unit which is strong against defences, assaults, skimishers, etc. It's called the Crabe. (Recluse and Infiltrator can help.) Venom+Hermit is extremely strong against raiders and light defences, which is mostly what gets made in the early game - when your opponent transitions to something which beats that, you should transition to something which beats them, using the advantage you got from countering their early units.
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Spider has a unit which is strong against defences, assaults, skimishers, etc. It's called the Crabe. (Recluse and Infiltrator can help.) Venom+Hermit is extremely strong against raiders and light defences, which is mostly what gets made in the early game - when your opponent transitions to something which beats that, you should transition to something which beats them, using the advantage you got from countering their early units.
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[spoiler]Before someone calls me on the "Crabe carrying the factory" argument, that's not what I just said.
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[spoiler]Before someone calls me on the "Crabe carrying the factory" argument, that's not what I just said.
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| 21 |
A
similar
statement
about
Lveh
fac
would
be
"Scorchers
are
weak
against
Stardusts,
but
that
is
OK
since
Lveh
factory
has
the
Impaler
to
kill
Stardusts,
and
Scorchers
*should
not*
be
able
to
beat
Stardusts".
[/spoiler]
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22 |
A
similar
statement
about
Lveh
fac
would
be
"Scorchers
are
weak
against
Stardusts,
but
that
is
OK
since
Lveh
factory
has
the
Impaler
to
kill
Stardusts,
and
Scorchers
*should
not*
be
able
to
beat
Stardusts".
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24 |
Similarly, Venom *should not* be good against Scalpel.[/spoiler]
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Redback is not very good.