| 1 |
I agree with GoogleFrog on most points. Widgets do put an extra pressure on game development. Even though it must be annoying, especially when one person has to deal with it all, I think it still improves game mechanics from time to time. E.g. turrets firing over their range was a thing that could be abused before it was widgetized, but its widgetization made it bad enough to warrant a fix. I certainly prefer this over the situation where turret fights were decided by manual force-fire micro.
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1 |
I agree with GoogleFrog on most points. Widgets do put an extra pressure on game development. Even though it must be annoying, especially when one person has to deal with it all, I think it still improves game mechanics from time to time. E.g. turrets firing over their range was a thing that could be abused before it was widgetized, but its widgetization made it bad enough to warrant a fix. I certainly prefer this over the situation where turret fights were decided by manual force-fire micro.
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| 2 |
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| 3 |
[quote]
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3 |
[quote]
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| 4 |
This paragraph isn't convincing anyone who isn't already a full cyborg. If you can't see that there is a difference between playing against a player and playing against a bot then you're going to have real trouble talking to half the people in this thread.
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4 |
This paragraph isn't convincing anyone who isn't already a full cyborg. If you can't see that there is a difference between playing against a player and playing against a bot then you're going to have real trouble talking to half the people in this thread.
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| 5 |
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| 6 |
Eventually AI is going to become powerful enough for a widget ban to be required. What if such players swarm the matchmaker? Where do new players who want to play people play?
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6 |
Eventually AI is going to become powerful enough for a widget ban to be required. What if such players swarm the matchmaker? Where do new players who want to play people play?
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| 7 |
[/quote]
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7 |
[/quote]
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| 8 |
This is the part that makes ZK so interesting. Thanks to the integration of unit AI, I would say that everyone using it already is that "full cyborg". One of the first versions of my AI experiments that was able to contest CAI (not win reliably), was a simple factory on fight-move to the enemy corner with an eco-planner. Any player can replicate this using alt-area-mex + a factory on repeat. I bet that just a few good inputs like this at the beginning of the game will be enough to win some low level matches. You could hardly call playing against this playing against a human.
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8 |
This is the part that makes ZK so interesting. Thanks to the integration of unit AI, I would say that everyone using it already is that "full cyborg". One of the first versions of my AI experiments that was able to contest CAI (not win reliably), was a simple factory on fight-move to the enemy corner with an eco-planner. Any player can replicate this using alt-area-mex + a factory on repeat. I bet that just a few good inputs like this at the beginning of the game will be enough to win some low level matches. You could hardly call playing against this playing against a human.
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| 9 |
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| 10 |
Our current set of controls is what we've become used to - what we call human/normal play, even though it would be considered blatant cheating in other games. So why does more powerful AI equal to us having to ban it? Where does powerful UI suddenly turn into bot? Why can't we eventually have a smart-attack command that tells units to prioritize specific targets, regroup with nearby allies or avoid porc?
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10 |
Our current set of controls is what we've become used to - what we call human/normal play, even though it would be considered blatant cheating in other games. So why does more powerful AI equal to us having to ban it? Where does powerful UI suddenly turn into bot? Why can't we eventually have a smart-attack command that tells units to prioritize specific targets, regroup with nearby allies or avoid porc?
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| 11 |
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| 12 |
[spoiler]
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12 |
[spoiler]
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| 13 |
One
thing
to
talk
about
here
is
that
advanced
automation
commands
could
take
away
all
of
the
player
control.
ZK
automation
has
always
been
about
trading
control
for
automation.
For
example
I
hardly
ever
use
the
automatic
retreat,
because
I
don't
find
it
effective
for
the
amount
of
control
it
costs.
Similarly
with
such
commands
it
would
be
the
job
of
the
player
to
automate
where
they
don't
have
the
apm
to
act
themselves,
but
continue
using
manual
commands
where
they
can
be
more
effective.
As
long
as
humans
are
the
ones
programming
AI,
I
believe
there
will
always
be
situations
where
manual
control
trumps
automation.
We're
nowhere
close
to
that
limit
being
reached
in
RTS.
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13 |
One
thing
to
consider
here
is
that
advanced
automation
commands
could
take
away
all
of
the
player
control.
ZK
automation
has
always
been
about
trading
control
for
automation.
For
example
I
hardly
ever
use
the
automatic
retreat,
because
I
don't
find
it
effective
for
the
amount
of
control
it
costs.
Similarly,
with
improved
commands
it
would
be
the
job
of
the
player
to
automate
where
they
don't
have
the
apm
to
act
themselves,
but
continue
using
manual
commands
where
they
can
be
more
effective.
As
long
as
humans
are
the
ones
programming
AI,
I
believe
there
will
always
be
situations
where
manual
control
trumps
automation.
We're
nowhere
close
to
that
limit
being
reached
in
RTS.
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| 14 |
[/spoiler]
|
14 |
[/spoiler]
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| 15 |
Thanks to unit AI, you can see parallel fights on multiple fronts even at low levels. If it weren't for that automation, those players would not be able to control such a situation. Right now I think the main reason we don't see more fleas/dirtbags/[cheap unit] in late game is because their effectiveness/apm is too low. Otherwise I don't see why one wouldn't always have a few of them trying to poke through undefended holes and killing mexes.
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15 |
Thanks to unit AI, you can see parallel fights on multiple fronts even at low levels. If it weren't for that automation, those players would not be able to control such a situation. Right now I think the main reason we don't see more fleas/dirtbags/[cheap unit] in late game is because their effectiveness/apm is too low. Otherwise I don't see why one wouldn't always have a few of them trying to poke through undefended holes and killing mexes.
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| 16 |
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16 |
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| 17 |
So shouldn't we embrace our Cyborg nature that allows ZK games to be so expansive yet fluidly playable?
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17 |
So shouldn't we embrace our Cyborg nature that allows ZK games to be so expansive yet fluidly playable?
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Widgets vs Cheating