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[quote]I am a LONG way from being convinced of that. Sea seems a lot healthier at the moment than it has been for most of the time I have been playing the game (Serpent meta, Siren meta, the multiple different Scallop metas, etc). Sea doesn't have nearly as much variation as land, but that seems mostly driven by the fact that it has many fewer factories.
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[quote]I am a LONG way from being convinced of that. Sea seems a lot healthier at the moment than it has been for most of the time I have been playing the game (Serpent meta, Siren meta, the multiple different Scallop metas, etc). Sea doesn't have nearly as much variation as land, but that seems mostly driven by the fact that it has many fewer factories.
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[/quote]
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[/quote]
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I'm just thinking about what kind of game play is workable and what is cancer, in terms of archtypical combat concept:
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I'm just thinking about what kind of game play is workable and what is cancer, in terms of archtypical combat concept:
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Good tactical matchups:
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Good tactical matchups:
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1. Riot-Skirm vs Riot-Skirm:
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1. Riot-Skirm vs Riot-Skirm:
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Both sides can fight a micro-ed, sustained fight involving:
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Both sides can fight a micro-ed, sustained fight involving:
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-sniping riots and flood raiders or just win attrition
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-sniping riots and flood raiders or just win attrition
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-sniping opponent skirm, perhaps using lower value bait and surprising positioning
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-sniping opponent skirm, perhaps using lower value bait and surprising positioning
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This is pretty workable and can work up to end game.
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This is pretty workable and can work up to end game.
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2. Porc push vs Assault:
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2. Porc push vs Assault:
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-Porc will try to push defenses up to the opponent
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-Porc will try to push defenses up to the opponent
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-Assault will attack the porc to keep it from taking the map.
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-Assault will attack the porc to keep it from taking the map.
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Assault can choose point and time of attack and gain local advantage thus break the front edge. The depth and greater strength of statics means assault can't break the entire defense line in one go and has to retire to repair, replenish high attrition units and reorganize. In this time the porcer rebuilds thus maintain sort of equilibrium until one side controls the map.
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Assault can choose point and time of attack and gain local advantage thus break the front edge. The depth and greater strength of statics means assault can't break the entire defense line in one go and has to retire to repair, replenish high attrition units and reorganize. In this time the porcer rebuilds thus maintain sort of equilibrium until one side controls the map.
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3. Riot-Skirm vs Assault:
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3. Riot-Skirm vs Assault:
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-Skirm will try to pressure and induce attrition and win with greater value over time
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-Skirm will try to pressure and induce attrition and win with greater value over time
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-Assault
will
try
to
avoid
attrition
until
positioned
to
counter
with
overrun
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-Assault
will
try
to
avoid
attrition
(
with
terrain/maneuver)
until
positioned
to
counter
with
overrun
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This can sometimes result skirm getting overrun quickly, but in balanced game states generally there is much positioning and the skirm side can generally get away with a sizeable part of their force after a big fight.
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This can sometimes result skirm getting overrun quickly, but in balanced game states generally there is much positioning and the skirm side can generally get away with a sizeable part of their force after a big fight.
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4. Raider vs Raider:
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4. Raider vs Raider:
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-Mutual position game to damage enemy econ and to avoid damage. This can be stable up to end game with two aggressive players especially in mirrors, but with one or both player is conserving army, eventually army value lost will exceed expected damage to econ making it no longer worth spending in attacks. Transitions into assault vs porc or raider against riot into riot-skirm. Raiding does not work without cohesion to concentrate force, so hard to make work in teams.
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-Mutual position game to damage enemy econ and to avoid damage. This can be stable up to end game with two aggressive players especially in mirrors, but with one or both player is conserving army, eventually army value lost will exceed expected damage to econ making it no longer worth spending in attacks. Transitions into assault vs porc or raider against riot into riot-skirm. Raiding does not work without cohesion to concentrate force, so hard to make work in teams.
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5. Bomb vs Riot Skirm: (btw I put ulti/widow as a bomb)
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5. Bomb vs Riot Skirm: (btw I put ulti/widow as a bomb)
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- The skrim will try to always induce damage on opponent
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- The skrim will try to always induce damage on opponent
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- The bomber will have to feed/stall/bait the skirm until positioned to bomb, similar to assaults
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- The bomber will have to feed/stall/bait the skirm until positioned to bomb, similar to assaults
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The final encounter may be fast, and the bomb may be defused or land. Not particular fun for the skirm but still fair.
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The final encounter may be fast, and the bomb may be defused or land. Not particular fun for the skirm but still fair.
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Unfun, but Non-stable matchups: This situation is not very interesting, but transitions to other game states naturally:
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Unfun, but Non-stable matchups: This situation is not very interesting, but transitions to other game states naturally:
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1. Porc vs Arty (out ranging skirm)
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1. Porc vs Arty (out ranging skirm)
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The porc would get equal range arty and transition to riot-skirm fight, or longer range fixed artillery and transition into porc-assault fight.
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The porc would get equal range arty and transition to riot-skirm fight, or longer range fixed artillery and transition into porc-assault fight.
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There is the degenerate case where the porc result in full shield/terra-wall vs full arty, but reasonable players on reasonable maps just fight somewhere else. The degenerate case becomes the normal case when porc is strategic, like super weapons or silos in range to super, but it is such a rare and end game state that its okay so mindless "build 30 shields to keep building alive" is okay.
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There is the degenerate case where the porc result in full shield/terra-wall vs full arty, but reasonable players on reasonable maps just fight somewhere else. The degenerate case becomes the normal case when porc is strategic, like super weapons or silos in range to super, but it is such a rare and end game state that its okay so mindless "build 30 shields to keep building alive" is okay.
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2. Bomb vs Bomb: Once one or both side figures out the situation, transition into anti-bomb enables an advantage.
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2. Bomb vs Bomb: Once one or both side figures out the situation, transition into anti-bomb enables an advantage.
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3. Bomb vs Assault: Assault have poor screening capabilities, and assault units designs itself have to deal the bombs. At least it is over quickly.
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3. Bomb vs Assault: Assault have poor screening capabilities, and assault units designs itself have to deal the bombs. At least it is over quickly.
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4. Porc vs Porc. One side or both would realize it is impossible to porc the other side and build artillery or units.
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4. Porc vs Porc. One side or both would realize it is impossible to porc the other side and build artillery or units.
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Degenerate matchups:
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Degenerate matchups:
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1. Assault vs Assault (can be riot in Z-K, both are similar)
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1. Assault vs Assault (can be riot in Z-K, both are similar)
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The default case is that there is significant defender's advantage and thus it makes no sense to attack if in a good tactical defensive position: staring contest. If the fighting happens it is all over in a hurry as the winning side compound their advantage with n^2 law. Either game have transition available to avoid a big fight, or the big fight is "well designed" or the game is bad!
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The default case is that there is significant defender's advantage and thus it makes no sense to attack if in a good tactical defensive position: staring contest. If the fighting happens it is all over in a hurry as the winning side compound their advantage with n^2 law. Either game have transition available to avoid a big fight, or the big fight is "well designed" or the game is bad!
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In this combat scenario, pure strength and force cohesion is more important than details of positioning. Very annoying in random pick up team games. (this includes much pain in likes of world of tank/ships, mobas, etc)
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In this combat scenario, pure strength and force cohesion is more important than details of positioning. Very annoying in random pick up team games. (this includes much pain in likes of world of tank/ships, mobas, etc)
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-----------------------------
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If one view it this way, one can probably figure out a meta-style balance, for example:
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If one view it this way, one can probably figure out a meta-style balance, for example:
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assault >= riotskirm >= bomb >> assault
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assault >= riotskirm >= bomb >> assault
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Just avoid assault-assault dominant meta, especially when transition costs are taken into account. In normal zero-k unit density limits prevents assault-assault dominance, but not with lobsters or drops, if they ever becomes good....
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Just avoid assault-assault dominant meta, especially when transition costs are taken into account. In normal zero-k unit density limits prevents assault-assault dominance, but not with lobsters or drops, if they ever becomes good....
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---------------------------
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Sea is boring because there is like 1 army comp (even if it takes 3~4 factories). that have no counters on a meta level.
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Sea is boring because there is like 1 army comp (even if it takes 3~4 factories). that have no counters on a meta level.
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