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BAR and Zero-K Comparison

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Date Editor Before After
8/2/2025 10:45:02 AMPLrankizirayd before revert after revert
8/1/2025 10:33:40 PMPLrankizirayd before revert after revert
Before After
1 Hey, the guy with 59OS is here (well, the max I ever got in team games was 59OS, which was equivalent to top 12). 1 Hey, the guy with 59OS is here (well, the max I ever got in team games was 59OS, which was equivalent to top 12).
2 \n 2 \n
3 I’ve played several thousand matches in BAR and ZK. You've highlighted many things already, but I’ll add more. There’s a clear distinction in gameplay modes: 1v1, small teams, FFA, and large team games. In BAR, these differences are even more pronounced than in ZK. Let’s start broadly — currently, if we’re talking about gameplay, ZK feels like a game that has reimagined and addressed a huge number of pain points from BAR and has moved far away from TA, whereas BAR remains conservative and close to classic TA. 3 I’ve played several thousand matches in BAR and ZK. You've highlighted many things already, but I’ll add more. There’s a clear distinction in gameplay modes: 1v1, small teams, FFA, and large team games. In BAR, these differences are even more pronounced than in ZK. Let’s start broadly — currently, if we’re talking about gameplay, ZK feels like a game that has reimagined and addressed a huge number of pain points from BAR and has moved far away from TA, whereas BAR remains conservative and close to classic TA.
4 \n 4 \n
5 Let’s begin with the most fundamental difference: the T1, T2, T3 tech system — which leads to disaster. I’ll explain briefly. 5 Let’s begin with the most fundamental difference: the T1, T2, T3 tech system — which leads to disaster. I’ll explain briefly.
6 \n 6 \n
7 When talking unit power levels, ZK units are around T1.5 — they’re stronger than T1 units, with better turning radii, smoother handling, larger ranges, better DPS, etc. 7 When talking unit power levels, ZK units are around T1.5 — they’re stronger than T1 units, with better turning radii, smoother handling, larger ranges, better DPS, etc.
8 \n 8 \n
9 Some BAR T2 units are stronger than ZK units, but not all. 9 Some BAR T2 units are stronger than ZK units, but not all.
10 \n 10 \n
11 T2 units are about 45% stronger than T1 units relative to cost, with the exception of artillery, where T2 is vastly stronger. 11 T2 units are about 45% stronger than T1 units relative to cost, with the exception of artillery, where T2 is vastly stronger.
12 \n 12 \n
13 The T2 factory costs 2900 metal — expensive, yes — but it gives access to very powerful units, even without upgraded mexes. 13 The T2 factory costs 2900 metal — expensive, yes — but it gives access to very powerful units, even without upgraded mexes.
14 \n 14 \n
15 At +30m/s, you can start building your T2 factory. In an 8v8 match, you reach this around the end of the opening stage (4–6 minutes in). 15 At +30m/s, you can start building your T2 factory. In an 8v8 match, you reach this around the end of the opening stage (4–6 minutes in).
16 \n 16 \n
17 So, if T2 units are stronger than T1, then rushing T2 becomes crucial. What stops two players from both investing in T2 factories and building units — even without upgrading mexes — since they’re generating +60m/s together? Nothing. This is what’s known as the cooperation problem. The player facing a cooperating enemy team loses their lane instantly. 17 So, if T2 units are stronger than T1, then rushing T2 becomes crucial. What stops two players from both investing in T2 factories and building units — even without upgrading mexes — since they’re generating +60m/s together? Nothing. This is what’s known as the cooperation problem. The player facing a cooperating enemy team loses their lane instantly.
18 \n 18 \n
19 In ZK this simply isn’t possible, because there are no overpowered units you can get that suddenly make you a god. (Paladin might be the one exception 😄) 19 In ZK this simply isn’t possible, because there are no overpowered units you can get that suddenly make you a god. (Paladin might be the one exception 😄)
20 \n 20 \n
21 In BAR, the cooperation problem has no solution, because any solution would just be cringe. 21 In BAR, the cooperation problem has no solution, because any solution would just be cringe.
22 \n 22 \n
23 == 23 ==
24 \n 24 \n
25 You mentioned mexes not being super important earlier — actually, losing 3 mexes in BAR can cause you to lose the entire game, easily. That’s because you need resources, time, and breathing room to recover — and during that time, your opponent freezes the front line and techs to T2. Then you’re dead. 25 You mentioned mexes not being super important earlier — actually, losing 3 mexes in BAR can cause you to lose the entire game, easily. That’s because you need resources, time, and breathing room to recover — and during that time, your opponent freezes the front line and techs to T2. Then you’re dead.
26 \n 26 \n
27 == 27 ==
28 \n 28 \n
29 GF wrote about APM — I liked his explanation. It’s important in both games. 29 GF wrote about APM — I liked his explanation. It’s important in both games.
30 \n 30 \n
31 == 31 ==
32 \n 32 \n
33 ZK reimagined all the garbage around resource mechanics and calculations, while in BAR it's a complete mess. I was 59OS and I couldn’t calculate in my head when I’d get an AFUS (ZK’s Singularity equivalent). Know why? 33 ZK reimagined all the garbage around resource mechanics and calculations, while in BAR it's a complete mess. I was 59OS and I couldn’t calculate in my head when I’d get an AFUS (ZK’s Singularity equivalent). Know why?
34 \n 34 \n
35 BAR units have three different cost types, and they’re all different: 35 BAR units have three different cost types, and they’re all different:
36 \n 36 \n
37 Metal 37 Metal
38 \n 38 \n
39 Energy 39 Energy
40 \n 40 \n
41 Build Time — yeah, meet this disgusting concept that’s also hidden in the GUI. ZK has it too, but as an intermediate value in a simple formula. In BAR, it’s a fixed stat. 41 Build Time — yeah, meet this disgusting concept that’s also hidden in the GUI. ZK has it too, but as an intermediate value in a simple formula. In BAR, it’s a fixed stat.
42 \n 42 \n
43 Here’s how it works in ZK: 43 Here’s how it works in ZK:
44 \n 44 \n
45 If a unit costs 100 metal, and your constructor has 10 BP, it takes 100 / 10 = 10 seconds, consuming 10m and 10e per second. It's absurdly simple. 45 If a unit costs 100 metal, and your constructor has 10 BP, it takes 100 / 10 = 10 seconds, consuming 10m and 10e per second. It's absurdly simple.
46 \n 46 \n
47 In BAR: 47 In BAR:
48 \n 48 \n
49 The unit will have something like: 100 metal, 670 energy, 1500 build time. 49 The unit will have something like: 100 metal, 670 energy, 1500 build time.
50 \n 50 \n
51 Your constructor might have 90 BP. 51 Your constructor might have 90 BP.
52 \n 52 \n
53 Oh, and another joy — in BAR, metal is in tens, energy in hundreds. 53 Oh, and another joy — in BAR, metal is in tens, energy in hundreds.
54 \n 54 \n
55 So you might have +27 m/s and +631 e/s. Energy is just arbitrarily x10. 55 So you might have +27 m/s and +631 e/s. Energy is just arbitrarily x10.
56 \n 56 \n
57 Now the unit will be built based on the constructor’s BP and the build time — and the energy and metal drain is calculated via a multiplier. It’s impossible to do this math in your head. And keep in mind — in BAR, economy and build orders are critical parts of gameplay. There are maps where a single delay in build timing by a few seconds can set you back 2 minutes and cost you the game — someone playing "by the book" will just win. 57 Now the unit will be built based on the constructor’s BP and the build time — and the energy and metal drain is calculated via a multiplier. It’s impossible to do this math in your head. And keep in mind — in BAR, economy and build orders are critical parts of gameplay. There are maps where a single delay in build timing by a few seconds can set you back 2 minutes and cost you the game — someone playing "by the book" will just win.
58 \n 58 \n
59 ZK completely ditches all this trash, and thank God. BAR used to make me suffer so much I even modified LUA just to display energy in different units. 59 ZK completely ditches all this trash, and thank God. BAR used to make me suffer so much I even modified LUA just to display energy in different units.
60 \n 60 \n
61 == 61 ==
62 \n 62 \n
63 In BAR there are two maps that the same group of players plays every day in 8v8. I played one of these and got up to 55OS. When I switched to random maps, I dropped to 42OS. 63 In BAR there are two maps that the same group of players plays every day in 8v8. I played one of these and got up to 55OS. When I switched to random maps, I dropped to 42OS.
64 \n 64 \n
65 ZK doesn’t have this issue. 65 ZK doesn’t have this issue.
66 \n 66 \n
67 == 67 ==
68 \n 68 \n
69 With mex-area in BAR, the designer designs a shitty path between mexes, in zk it's perfect. 69 With mex-area in BAR, the cons designs a shitty path between mexes, in zk it's perfect.
70 \n 70 \n
71 == 71 ==
72 \n 72 \n
73 The commander in BAR is fun, he has this dgun - it adds spice, of course there are situations when the commander is used as a mini-nuke and dropped on the enemy. 73 The commander in BAR is fun, he has this dgun - it adds spice, of course there are situations when the commander is used as a mini-nuke and dropped on the enemy.
74 \n 74 \n
75 By the way, the bar commander has a hidden damage multiplier from llt, that is, llt hits him harder :D 75 By the way, the bar commander has a hidden damage multiplier from llt, that is, llt hits him harder :D
76 \n 76 \n
77 == 77 ==
78 \n 78 \n
79 BAR is still behind ZK in map quantity. BAR’s 8v8 maps follow a very strict format, so you’ll end up playing ~6–8 maps on repeat. In ZK, you can run a 16v16 on basically any trash map — even if it turns into a Paladin rush, it’ll still be fun. 79 BAR is still behind ZK in map quantity. BAR’s 8v8 maps follow a very strict format, so you’ll end up playing ~6–8 maps on repeat. In ZK, you can run a 16v16 on basically any trash map — even if it turns into a Paladin rush, it’ll still be fun.
80 \n 80 \n
81 Why? In BAR, 8v8 gives each player a fixed lane and a fixed number of mexes — usually enough for a +22m/s economy to reach T2. Maps are pre-divided into “who gets what mexes,” and players memorize these as a core skill. It gets to the point where people argue over mexes. I’ve had people flame me over this — once I spawned on the wrong spot (I didn’t know the convention), someone typed !stop and called me a troll. I genuinely didn’t understand what I did wrong. After that, the devs added spawn circles to show where to go. It feels like they did it because of me 😅 81 Why? In BAR, 8v8 gives each player a fixed lane and a fixed number of mexes — usually enough for a +22m/s economy to reach T2. Maps are pre-divided into “who gets what mexes,” and players memorize these as a core skill. It gets to the point where people argue over mexes. I’ve had people flame me over this — once I spawned on the wrong spot (I didn’t know the convention), someone typed !stop and called me a troll. I genuinely didn’t understand what I did wrong. After that, the devs added spawn circles to show where to go. It feels like they did it because of me 😅
82 \n 82 \n
83 In ZK, you can spawn wherever the hell you want — nobody cares. You can build all the mexes — nobody cares. It’s chill as hell. 83 In ZK, you can spawn wherever the hell you want — nobody cares. You can build all the mexes — nobody cares. It’s chill as hell.
84 \n 84 \n
85 === 85 ===
86 \n 86 \n
87 While we’re at it — spawning in BAR sucks because commanders are all one type — the equivalent of ZK’s combat com. In ZK you can pick jumpcom, which gives you terrain mobility, changing opening strategies. 87 While we’re at it — spawning in BAR sucks because commanders are all one type — the equivalent of ZK’s combat com. In ZK you can pick jumpcom, which gives you terrain mobility, changing opening strategies.
88 \n 88 \n
89 BAR still makes you build a factory for 30 seconds every match — wasting my life! ZK said: "Hey, why are we building this trash every game? Let’s not waste people’s lives." 89 BAR still makes you build a factory for 30 seconds every match — wasting my life! ZK said: "Hey, why are we building this trash every game? Let’s not waste people’s lives."
90 \n 90 \n
91 Also, terraform gives cool tricks in the opening — lets you go places. 91 Also, terraform gives cool tricks in the opening — lets you go places.
92 \n 92 \n
93 And since BAR only has two viable opening factories — cloak and rovers — the openings are super repetitive. 93 And since BAR only has two viable opening factories — cloak and rovers — the openings are super repetitive.
94 \n 94 \n
95 == 95 ==
96 \n 96 \n
97 Repetitiveness — that’s the reason why BAR 1v1 is trash compared to ZK 1v1. No wonder @Godde doesn’t want to play BAR. 97 Repetitiveness — that’s the reason why BAR 1v1 is trash compared to ZK 1v1. No wonder @Godde doesn’t want to play BAR.
98 \n 98 \n
99 Here’s the deal: in BAR 1v1, you only really play bots and rovers (really 4 factories due to ARM/COR, but unit roles are basically the same). And as I said, ZK’s units are like T1.5 — they’re just better and more fun to use. BAR’s T1 units suck. Most games never even reach T2, so you’re stuck with T1 — which is frustrating. There’s also air in BAR with a couple of metas, but ZK has two air factories too. 99 Here’s the deal: in BAR 1v1, you only really play bots and rovers (really 4 factories due to ARM/COR, but unit roles are basically the same). And as I said, ZK’s units are like T1.5 — they’re just better and more fun to use. BAR’s T1 units suck. Most games never even reach T2, so you’re stuck with T1 — which is frustrating. There’s also air in BAR with a couple of metas, but ZK has two air factories too.
100 \n 100 \n
101 In ZK you get 6 factory options, 4 commander variants, and a well-developed unit classification theory. ZK also follows a design philosophy: each unit should be unique, not just another version of something else. Balance changes follow this philosophy. Compare Moderator vs Ronin, for example. In BAR, both factories give you "Ronin" — one just walks 8% faster. 101 In ZK you get 6 factory options, 4 commander variants, and a well-developed unit classification theory. ZK also follows a design philosophy: each unit should be unique, not just another version of something else. Balance changes follow this philosophy. Compare Moderator vs Ronin, for example. In BAR, both factories give you "Ronin" — one just walks 8% faster.
102 \n 102 \n
103 ZK dominates in 1v1. 103 ZK dominates in 1v1.
104 \n 104 \n
105 == 105 ==
106 \n 106 \n
107 UI 107 UI
108 \n 108 \n
109 In BAR, I cannot move the minimap to the bottom-right corner and have it stay there permanently. I hate that. Know what I hate more? That I can’t see unit HP — it’s in the bottom-left corner. Also, Ctrl+A doesn’t work well to select metal extractors, because selected units only show up in a 20-pixel strip at the bottom left. There’s no reason for this. ZK solves all of this elegantly. 109 In BAR, I cannot move the minimap to the bottom-right corner and have it stay there permanently. I hate that. Know what I hate more? That I can’t see unit HP — it’s in the bottom-left corner. Also, Ctrl+A doesn’t work well to select metal extractors, because selected units only show up in a 20-pixel strip at the bottom left. There’s no reason for this. ZK solves all of this elegantly.
110 \n 110 \n
111 By the way, I made a GitHub post about this, and BAR devs added a grid menu (ZK-style build layout). That made me happy — probably one of the reasons I was able to enjoy BAR. 111 By the way, I made a GitHub post about this, and BAR devs added a grid menu (ZK-style build layout). That made me happy — probably one of the reasons I was able to enjoy BAR.
112 \n 112 \n
113 == 113 ==
114 \n 114 \n
115 ZK’s "Attack and Move" is amazing. BAR has a sad imitation of this. It’s funny to see Randy try to A-move in BAR 1v1 by reflex 😆 115 ZK’s "Attack and Move" is amazing. BAR has a sad imitation of this. It’s funny to see Randy try to A-move in BAR 1v1 by reflex 😆
116 \n 116 \n
117 == 117 ==
118 \n 118 \n
119 8v8 BAR vs 16v16 ZK 119 8v8 BAR vs 16v16 ZK
120 \n 120 \n
121 Here, BAR wins. 121 Here, BAR wins.
122 \n 122 \n
123 In ZK, you're always in a low-metal situation. You only get bonus metal from reclaim, and OD strategy (overdrive) isn’t viable at high ranks — at higher levels, you’re expected to output team DPS. 123 In ZK, you're always in a low-metal situation. You only get bonus metal from reclaim, and OD strategy (overdrive) isn’t viable at high ranks — at higher levels, you’re expected to output team DPS.
124 \n 124 \n
125 ZK team matches revolve around long, sustained DPS output using whatever meta exists. That might mean sniping with Lancets or Impalers. You’re controlling a few dozen units just to snipe enemy units — not even managing mexes or energy. No real challenge. 125 ZK team matches revolve around long, sustained DPS output using whatever meta exists. That might mean sniping with Lancets or Impalers. You’re controlling a few dozen units just to snipe enemy units — not even managing mexes or energy. No real challenge.
126 \n 126 \n
127 In BAR, I’m 1v1 on my lane. My job is to kill the opponent, break the line, and then flank and destroy other noobs. That’s satisfying. I manage more units. BAR T2 is more dynamic than ZK units. BAR T3 is better than ZK’s Striders factory because it has dynamic, rhythm-based hard-hitting units. I’m also annoyed by some ZK metas — Newt and JJ, Iris + Puppies or Snitch. Feels like a clown juggling swords — not serious. 127 In BAR, I’m 1v1 on my lane. My job is to kill the opponent, break the line, and then flank and destroy other noobs. That’s satisfying. I manage more units. BAR T2 is more dynamic than ZK units. BAR T3 is better than ZK’s Striders factory because it has dynamic, rhythm-based hard-hitting units. I’m also annoyed by some ZK metas — Newt and JJ, Iris + Puppies or Snitch. Feels like a clown juggling swords — not serious.
128 \n 128 \n
129 Even the giant T3 Pyro is fun. 129 Even the giant T3 Pyro is fun.
130 \n 130 \n
131 == 131 ==
132 \n 132 \n
133 Balance 133 Balance
134 \n 134 \n
135 Let’s go. 135 Let’s go.
136 \n 136 \n
137 Ships in BAR are total trash. Their range is increased, like in ZK, but ZK has semi-amphibious factories that can fight back against ships. Not so in BAR. There are no such factories — shipyard is permanently stronger than any land factory, even T2. And T2 shipyard beats even land T2s. Now brace yourselves — there’s a ship called Flagship. It has a completely insane attack range — more than ZK’s Shogun. Further than Merlin. When this thing shows up, your units just die. BAR has no mechanic to counter the Flagship. Whoever wins water, wins the map — full stop. 137 Ships in BAR are total trash. Their range is increased, like in ZK, but ZK has semi-amphibious factories that can fight back against ships. Not so in BAR. There are no such factories — shipyard is permanently stronger than any land factory, even T2. And T2 shipyard beats even land T2s. Now brace yourselves — there’s a ship called Flagship. It has a completely insane attack range — more than ZK’s Shogun. Further than Merlin. When this thing shows up, your units just die. BAR has no mechanic to counter the Flagship. Whoever wins water, wins the map — full stop.
138 \n 138 \n
139 BAR’s air is also trash. Though ZK has started showing similar issues in recent patches. BAR interceptors can’t shoot ground targets — they’re useless. There are tons of land-based T1 AA turrets that aren’t effective, with dumb AI. There are 3 types, but it doesn’t matter which you build. Meanwhile, T2 AA is great. ZK air is more about sniping, stunning, and fun interactions. BAR has Shuris (Gnat analog), but with 100% accuracy. BAR air is a mix of GS and ZK’s air plant. T1 has Locust-style planes (for ARM faction), but weak and no DPS — only rarely useful for sniping commanders in FFA. Bombing bases to kill Winds with bombers — well, ZK’s Phoenix is similar, but Phoenix can hit ground units too. BAR bombers are useless on the front line — AA deals massive damage. Just three 90-metal AA turrets will wipe out a bomber swarm. Not worth it — better to go T2. 139 BAR’s air is also trash. Though ZK has started showing similar issues in recent patches. BAR interceptors can’t shoot ground targets — they’re useless. There are tons of land-based T1 AA turrets that aren’t effective, with dumb AI. There are 3 types, but it doesn’t matter which you build. Meanwhile, T2 AA is great. ZK air is more about sniping, stunning, and fun interactions. BAR has Shuris (Gnat analog), but with 100% accuracy. BAR air is a mix of GS and ZK’s air plant. T1 has Locust-style planes (for ARM faction), but weak and no DPS — only rarely useful for sniping commanders in FFA. Bombing bases to kill Winds with bombers — well, ZK’s Phoenix is similar, but Phoenix can hit ground units too. BAR bombers are useless on the front line — AA deals massive damage. Just three 90-metal AA turrets will wipe out a bomber swarm. Not worth it — better to go T2.
140 \n 140 \n
141 BAR air is fragile and only useful in a few narrow patterns. 141 BAR air is fragile and only useful in a few narrow patterns.
142 \n 142 \n
143 ZK has a unit-type theory — think of it like rock-paper-scissors, but for unit interactions: 143 ZK has a unit-type theory — think of it like rock-paper-scissors, but for unit interactions:
144 \n 144 \n
145 Raider 145 Raider
146 \n 146 \n
147 Riot 147 Riot
148 \n 148 \n
149 Sub-Arty 149 Sub-Arty
150 \n 150 \n
151 Assault 151 Assault
152 \n 152 \n
153 Arty 153 Arty
154 \n 154 \n
155 Raider beats Sub-Arty. 155 Raider beats Sub-Arty.
156 Riot beats Raider, but not vice versa. 156 Riot beats Raider, but not vice versa.
157 Sub-Arty beats Riot. 157 Sub-Arty beats Riot.
158 \n 158 \n
159 These types are created by tuning unit parameters — speed, range, HP, DPS, AoE, etc. 159 These types are created by tuning unit parameters — speed, range, HP, DPS, AoE, etc.
160 \n 160 \n
161 No unit has two overlapping types — otherwise it can't be countered properly. 161 No unit has two overlapping types — otherwise it can't be countered properly.
162 \n 162 \n
163 BAR wants to have this unit-type theory, but it’s weak. In BAR, the golden rule is: 163 BAR wants to have this unit-type theory, but it’s weak. In BAR, the golden rule is:
164 \n 164 \n
165 The longer a unit’s range, the stronger it is 😆 165 The longer a unit’s range, the stronger it is 😆
166 \n 166 \n
167 Great example — compare Glaives/Sling to Sprinter/Sheldon. 167 Great example — compare Glaives/Sling to Sprinter/Sheldon.
168 \n 168 \n
169 In ZK, Glaives (Raiders) can close in and kill Sling (Arty) with minimal losses. That’s balance. 169 In ZK, Glaives (Raiders) can close in and kill Sling (Arty) with minimal losses. That’s balance.
170 \n 170 \n
171 In BAR, Sprinters (Raiders) can’t even reach Sheldons (Arty) — they’ll die or take massive losses. Sheldon has perfect accuracy, tight turning, etc. It's technically a slow Raider, but functions like a sniper. 171 In BAR, Sprinters (Raiders) can’t even reach Sheldons (Arty) — they’ll die or take massive losses. Sheldon has perfect accuracy, tight turning, etc. It's technically a slow Raider, but functions like a sniper.
172 \n 172 \n
173 BAR has weak Riot design. There’s basically just the T1 Reaper. ZK’s Riot system is fully fleshed out. Also, Flea in BAR is stronger than in ZK — because in ZK, everything with AoE can kill it. Its biggest counter is Kodachi — one AoE shot deletes a swarm. 173 BAR has weak Riot design. There’s basically just the T1 Reaper. ZK’s Riot system is fully fleshed out. Also, Flea in BAR is stronger than in ZK — because in ZK, everything with AoE can kill it. Its biggest counter is Kodachi — one AoE shot deletes a swarm.
174 \n 174 \n
175 == 175 ==
176 \n 176 \n
177 I could write much more about other differences — like FFA — but this is already super long. 177 I could write much more about other differences — like FFA — but this is already super long.
178 \n 178 \n
179 PS I would also like to add that the OS rating system is complete crap, while WHR is a divine creation! 179 PS I would also like to add that the OS rating system is complete crap, while WHR is a divine creation!