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This post talks about the added Amphtank factory in my refumble mod (boatcarmod), and the goals and ideas that lead to those designs.
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This post talks about the added Amphtank factory in my refumble mod (boatcarmod), and the goals and ideas that lead to those designs.
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Mode Link: https://zero-k.info/Mods/Detail/186
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Mode Link: https://zero-k.info/Mods/Detail/186
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Repo Link: https://github.com/Stiofan-K/ZK-Balance_Testing_Mutators.sdd
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Repo Link: https://github.com/Stiofan-K/ZK-Balance_Testing_Mutators.sdd
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Other Refumble Threads:
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Other Refumble Threads:
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[url=https://zero-k.info/Forum/Thread/39774]Refumble: Planes[/url]
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[url=https://zero-k.info/Forum/Thread/39774]Refumble: Planes[/url]
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[url=https://zero-k.
info/Forum/Thread/395757]Refumble:
Striders[/url]
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[url=https://zero-k.
info/Forum/Thread/39597]Refumble:
Amphtanks[/url]
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The general idea for the factory was to just get more things for Sea-K. Hover and amphbots were already covered, so I wanted to try amphibious vehicles/tanks.
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The general idea for the factory was to just get more things for Sea-K. Hover and amphbots were already covered, so I wanted to try amphibious vehicles/tanks.
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Of course they still need to be compatible with surface factories and such too.
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Of course they still need to be compatible with surface factories and such too.
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The idea for the theming of this factory was based of the amphbot to other bot factories comparison, where they are generally slower but more tanky. Our vehicles factories generally emphasise speed to at least some degree, so there was a niche for a sort of slower handeling vehicle factory.
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The idea for the theming of this factory was based of the amphbot to other bot factories comparison, where they are generally slower but more tanky. Our vehicles factories generally emphasise speed to at least some degree, so there was a niche for a sort of slower handeling vehicle factory.
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To get around the issues of seafloor vehicle pathing, amphtanks that can submerge function like submarines and stay at a certain depth underwater instead of sticking to the seafloor. Theres some collision things to be figured out for that behaviour however.
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To get around the issues of seafloor vehicle pathing, amphtanks that can submerge function like submarines and stay at a certain depth underwater instead of sticking to the seafloor. Theres some collision things to be figured out for that behaviour however.
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Most current amphtanks float on the water surface, I'll specifically mention if they submerge in water.
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Most current amphtanks float on the water surface, I'll specifically mention if they submerge in water.
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I'll just talk through the in units and their ideas, themes and possibilities, a summary before:
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I'll just talk through the in units and their ideas, themes and possibilities, a summary before:
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{{{
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{{{
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Murderhole: Floating Armed Construction Tank
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Murderhole: Floating Armed Construction Tank
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Springald: Burstfire Light Raider Amphtank
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Springald: Burstfire Light Raider Amphtank
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Hive: Deployable Riot Swarm Missile Amphtank
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Hive: Deployable Riot Swarm Missile Amphtank
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Mangonel: Skirmishing Depth Charge Launcher
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Mangonel: Skirmishing Depth Charge Launcher
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Crocodile: Subsurface Assault Bombard
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Crocodile: Subsurface Assault Bombard
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Arbalest: Rapidfire Gauss Firesupport
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Arbalest: Rapidfire Gauss Firesupport
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Anura: Subsurface Assault/Raider Amphtank
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Anura: Subsurface Assault/Raider Amphtank
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Ballista: Disarming Anti-Air Amphtank
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Ballista: Disarming Anti-Air Amphtank
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Plaguerat: Terrain Flattening and Nanoplague Bomb
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Plaguerat: Terrain Flattening and Nanoplague Bomb
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}}}
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}}}
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Con:
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Con:
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Murderhole!
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Murderhole!
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Idea here was an armed amphibious con, a different counterpart to welder which is stronger in water and weaker on land.
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Idea here was an armed amphibious con, a different counterpart to welder which is stronger in water and weaker on land.
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The speed, survivablility and efficency con niches were already covered by hover amph and ships respectively.
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The speed, survivablility and efficency con niches were already covered by hover amph and ships respectively.
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So! It's Welder with it's turret removed, instead now tossing depthcharges out of it's back.
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So! It's Welder with it's turret removed, instead now tossing depthcharges out of it's back.
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In water the dephtcharge is seeking meaning the murderhole can fight off a lone sea raider, but dies to a coordinated attack of 2 as long as they avoid clumping together.
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In water the dephtcharge is seeking meaning the murderhole can fight off a lone sea raider, but dies to a coordinated attack of 2 as long as they avoid clumping together.
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On land the charge is unguided and tossed at the enemy, though since it isn't seeking all raiders can bait and dodge it's charge, with tac ai/autoskirm being decently adept at doing so automatically. Though as more raiders swarm it, it will be more likely to hit.
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On land the charge is unguided and tossed at the enemy, though since it isn't seeking all raiders can bait and dodge it's charge, with tac ai/autoskirm being decently adept at doing so automatically. Though as more raiders swarm it, it will be more likely to hit.
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In practise this means that Murderhole does better against larger groups of raiders compared to welder and can act as a support for porc and armies against raiderblobs.
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In practise this means that Murderhole does better against larger groups of raiders compared to welder and can act as a support for porc and armies against raiderblobs.
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In turn Murderhole doesn't have the guranteed kills and safety welder has against most lone raiders, except in water.
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In turn Murderhole doesn't have the guranteed kills and safety welder has against most lone raiders, except in water.
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----
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----
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Raider/scout:
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Raider/scout:
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Springald!
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Springald!
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A burstfire particle beam raider!
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A burstfire particle beam raider!
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Intended to be a sort of skirmy raider, that doesnt like being swarmed and pokes away at the edge.
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Intended to be a sort of skirmy raider, that doesnt like being swarmed and pokes away at the edge.
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Borrows alot from scorcher, in hp breakpoints and such and gains it's tankyness by being cheaper than it at 100 cost.
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Borrows alot from scorcher, in hp breakpoints and such and gains it's tankyness by being cheaper than it at 100 cost.
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Slower than scorcher by a decent degree 95 instead of 115.
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Slower than scorcher by a decent degree 95 instead of 115.
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Damage breakpoints let most raiders survive one or two bursts, to where only pairs or groups of springalds start to pick off single raiders.
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Damage breakpoints let most raiders survive one or two bursts, to where only pairs or groups of springalds start to pick off single raiders.
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In practice it plays akin to a dagger/bandit hybrid, that isn't as effective in a dive/as dive happy as other raiders due to low dps. 69 dps, 45 damge, 3 shot burst, 2 second reload.
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In practice it plays akin to a dagger/bandit hybrid, that isn't as effective in a dive/as dive happy as other raiders due to low dps. 69 dps, 45 damge, 3 shot burst, 2 second reload.
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Overall, I think I've hit the mark pretty well with this one, where I've not had to change much or had anyone note anything negative about it.
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Overall, I think I've hit the mark pretty well with this one, where I've not had to change much or had anyone note anything negative about it.
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----
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----
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Riot:
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Riot:
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Hive!
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Hive!
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Deploying Swarm Missile Riot
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Deploying Swarm Missile Riot
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Hive leans into the dps side of riots, with rapidfire swarm missiles that retarget onto the hives next target if the original target dies.
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Hive leans into the dps side of riots, with rapidfire swarm missiles that retarget onto the hives next target if the original target dies.
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Currently deploys to fire, so is relatively easily skirmed.
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Currently deploys to fire, so is relatively easily skirmed.
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Overheats, slowing its firerate to half its maximum, partically to limit anti assault effectiveness
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Overheats, slowing its firerate to half its maximum, partically to limit anti assault effectiveness
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Is watercooled, so cools it's overheat faster in water.
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Is watercooled, so cools it's overheat faster in water.
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Has decently high range at 420, but could easily be less.
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Has decently high range at 420, but could easily be less.
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DPS is at 376 currently, 2500 hp.
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DPS is at 376 currently, 2500 hp.
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With the way the missiles work the damage is pretty guranteed and single target, but they take much longer to start doing their damage compared to all other riots.
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With the way the missiles work the damage is pretty guranteed and single target, but they take much longer to start doing their damage compared to all other riots.
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\n
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There are a few possible version here, with some not deploying or overheating, but it seems in a decent spot at the moment. It can do it's job.
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There are a few possible version here, with some not deploying or overheating, but it seems in a decent spot at the moment. It can do it's job.
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The general idea here was that we don't have a missile riot unit yet and I wanted to make a sort of backloaded damage riot. With overheat it is more frontloaded with delayed damage atm though An alternative would be having it spin up while deployed or something.
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The general idea here was that we don't have a missile riot unit yet and I wanted to make a sort of backloaded damage riot. With overheat it is more frontloaded with delayed damage atm though An alternative would be having it spin up while deployed or something.
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----
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Skirm:
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Skirm:
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Mangonel!
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Mangonel!
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Depthcharge launching skimrisher.
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Depthcharge launching skimrisher.
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An expensive (300 cost) and relatively slow (50) skirmisher vehicle.
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An expensive (300 cost) and relatively slow (50) skirmisher vehicle.
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Has some aoe (70) on it's projectile (scary) but overall not great dps (73 dps, 220 damage a shot, 565 range)
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Has some aoe (70) on it's projectile (scary) but overall not great dps (73 dps, 220 damage a shot, 565 range)
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Has the option to high angle fire, to fire over terrain obstacles and enable trench warfare.
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Has the option to high angle fire, to fire over terrain obstacles and enable trench warfare.
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Is similar in function to recluse, as an expensive skirm/antiskirm and is countered similarly.
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Is similar in function to recluse, as an expensive skirm/antiskirm and is countered similarly.
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On land, Mangonel feels pretty safely settled so far.
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On land, Mangonel feels pretty safely settled so far.
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It does it's job as an expensive and proportionally strong skirm, with an interesting edge in optional highangle fire and aoe.
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It does it's job as an expensive and proportionally strong skirm, with an interesting edge in optional highangle fire and aoe.
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Land Mangonel has generally not had much negative feedback, outside the scaryness of some aoe on a skirm.
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Land Mangonel has generally not had much negative feedback, outside the scaryness of some aoe on a skirm.
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On water things are alot more spicy and uncertain, since it's depthcharge can track once it hits water. With no true antisub riot in the factory, like Archer or Claymore, Mangonel, Murderhole and the subsurface unit's need to make do, which is a little interesting at least.
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On water things are alot more spicy and uncertain, since it's depthcharge can track once it hits water. With no true antisub riot in the factory, like Archer or Claymore, Mangonel, Murderhole and the subsurface unit's need to make do, which is a little interesting at least.
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The depthcharge has a very short flighttime(1s) so raiders can still juke or flee, and the weaknesses of land mangonel do still apply.
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The depthcharge has a very short flighttime(1s) so raiders can still juke or flee, and the weaknesses of land mangonel do still apply.
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\n
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Still this is scary antisub skirm, which is threathening for amphbots and subs to say the least.
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Still this is scary antisub skirm, which is threathening for amphbots and subs to say the least.
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And also sort of seeking skirm in water too, which is also scary.
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And also sort of seeking skirm in water too, which is also scary.
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So overall, I think the pure land usage for Mangonel is fitting enough, with the water use being much scarier.
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So overall, I think the pure land usage for Mangonel is fitting enough, with the water use being much scarier.
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For water I've not had too much negative feedback either, though the sample size is much lower for amphtank vs amphbot in water matchups. Land and water charge share a reload.
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For water I've not had too much negative feedback either, though the sample size is much lower for amphtank vs amphbot in water matchups. Land and water charge share a reload.
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----
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Assault:
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Assault:
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Crocodile!
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Crocodile!
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Subsurface Assault bombard.
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Subsurface Assault bombard.
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The idea here was an assault tank with long reload, single heavy hitting rocket/torpedo.
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The idea here was an assault tank with long reload, single heavy hitting rocket/torpedo.
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It is the first unit listed that swims underneath the water surface as a sub.
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It is the first unit listed that swims underneath the water surface as a sub.
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\n
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This has been probably the most critiqued unit for decent reason, and I've steadily tried to adjust it into a better state.
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This has been probably the most critiqued unit for decent reason, and I've steadily tried to adjust it into a better state.
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\n
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It feels like a unit sort of stuck in the normal assault slot that wants to be a heavy assault instead, though I'm still not quite sure what stat profile and cost would befit it's idea best.
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It feels like a unit sort of stuck in the normal assault slot that wants to be a heavy assault instead, though I'm still not quite sure what stat profile and cost would befit it's idea best.
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On Land Croc lobs a around 1k damage rocket at 380 range with decent aoe (140) and 10 second reload. It is decently dodgeable by raiders, so lone crocs get swarmed, while stacking them up makes them difficult for raiders to approach
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On Land Croc lobs a around 1k damage rocket at 380 range with decent aoe (140) and 10 second reload. It is decently dodgeable by raiders, so lone crocs get swarmed, while stacking them up makes them difficult for raiders to approach
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In water, Crcos shoot a impact torpedo, which is similar to the rocket with much reduced aoe (32, only able to catch multiple units with extreme clumping) but tracking. It's an implementation of the slow unmanoverable torpedo, so theyre likely to miss juking raiders.
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In water, Crcos shoot a impact torpedo, which is similar to the rocket with much reduced aoe (32, only able to catch multiple units with extreme clumping) but tracking. It's an implementation of the slow unmanoverable torpedo, so theyre likely to miss juking raiders.
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Torpedo and rocket have linked reloads.
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Torpedo and rocket have linked reloads.
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I've steadily tuned down the hp and subsurface capabilities of crocodile, to make it easier to skirmish on land and swarm in water. The latest version of croc doesnt have much testing yet. A safe but less interesting projectile for both land and sea would be reusing crab's 600 damage per shot threshold.
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I've steadily tuned down the hp and subsurface capabilities of crocodile, to make it easier to skirmish on land and swarm in water. The latest version of croc doesnt have much testing yet. A safe but less interesting projectile for both land and sea would be reusing crab's 600 damage per shot threshold.
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----
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----
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\n
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Artillery:
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Artillery:
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Arbalest!
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Arbalest!
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Rapidfire Gauss Firesupport
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Rapidfire Gauss Firesupport
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\n
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The idea here was making a longer range gauss weapon, which is scary as a concept by itself already.
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The idea here was making a longer range gauss weapon, which is scary as a concept by itself already.
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\n
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\n
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The previous itteration had some difficulty to get going, but was maybe just too self synergising and uninteractive in the end. There were two ways to go there, either a more expensive variation or a cheaper toned down version.
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The previous itteration had some difficulty to get going, but was maybe just too self synergising and uninteractive in the end. There were two ways to go there, either a more expensive variation or a cheaper toned down version.
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\n
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\n
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Now it is cheaper (900 cost) and toned down in range (675) and damage output, while becoming slightly tankier (1500 hp).
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Now it is cheaper (900 cost) and toned down in range (675) and damage output, while becoming slightly tankier (1500 hp).
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It overheats faster, so has an innitial burst of high damage output (301 dps), before slowing down to 20% firerate.
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It overheats faster, so has an innitial burst of high damage output (301 dps), before slowing down to 20% firerate.
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Is watercooled, so cools faster in water.
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Is watercooled, so cools faster in water.
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\n
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\n
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This might be a healthier spot for arbalest.
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This might be a healthier spot for arbalest.
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\n
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\n
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\n
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Overall, there are a few ways to go with the idea of gauss firesupport/arty that i'm trying to feel out, but it is a scary concept, especially for amphbots in water again. The low line of fire and resulting need for line of sight is an interesting drawback, that I tried to leverage by needing to shoot alot/deploying to fire. And it is also inline with being better in water.
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Overall, there are a few ways to go with the idea of gauss firesupport/arty that i'm trying to feel out, but it is a scary concept, especially for amphbots in water again. The low line of fire and resulting need for line of sight is an interesting drawback, that I tried to leverage by needing to shoot alot/deploying to fire. And it is also inline with being better in water.
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\n
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\n
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\n
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\n
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----
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----
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\n
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\n
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Heavy/Weird Raider:
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Heavy/Weird Raider:
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Anura!
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Anura!
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\n
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\n
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Subsurface Raider
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Subsurface Raider
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\n
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\n
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| 165 |
Anura is the second/heavy raider, that goes subsurface and moves as a sub in water.
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Anura is the second/heavy raider, that goes subsurface and moves as a sub in water.
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\n
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\n
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| 167 |
It has a decently tanky chassis, but is relatively slow for a raider at 90 speed. It's land plasma repeater have relatively slow projectiles that make it easy enough to kite by other raiders, but also make it good at kiting.
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It has a decently tanky chassis, but is relatively slow for a raider at 90 speed. It's land plasma repeater have relatively slow projectiles that make it easy enough to kite by other raiders, but also make it good at kiting.
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It's best used as a sort of light assault or antiskirm raider than a raider fighting raider.
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It's best used as a sort of light assault or antiskirm raider than a raider fighting raider.
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In water or near shores, it shoots a torpedo at water and subsurface targets.
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In water or near shores, it shoots a torpedo at water and subsurface targets.
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\n
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\n
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| 171 |
Overall, I'm again pretty okay with how land anura plays out, being on the heavier end of raiders but leaning more into an assaulty role.
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171 |
Overall, I'm again pretty okay with how land anura plays out, being on the heavier end of raiders but leaning more into an assaulty role.
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\n
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\n
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| 173 |
Water anura feels okay too sorta, but is much harder to test for. I also need to steal the range update function for the shorter range torp from duck.
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173 |
Water anura feels okay too sorta, but is much harder to test for. I also need to steal the range update function for the shorter range torp from duck.
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| 174 |
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174 |
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| 175 |
I do especially like the way anura shoots its land weapon, and I managed to animate the blitz model to make use of its amphibious aspects.
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175 |
I do especially like the way anura shoots its land weapon, and I managed to animate the blitz model to make use of its amphibious aspects.
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| 176 |
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176 |
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| 177 |
----
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177 |
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| 178 |
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178 |
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| 179 |
AA:
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179 |
AA:
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| 180 |
Ballista!
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180 |
Ballista!
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| 181 |
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181 |
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| 182 |
Disarming Flak AA
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182 |
Disarming Flak AA
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| 183 |
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183 |
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| 184 |
Idea here is simple, AA that denies bombing but doesnt necessarily kill the plane.
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184 |
Idea here is simple, AA that denies bombing but doesnt necessarily kill the plane.
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| 185 |
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185 |
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| 186 |
Current implementation works decently well, and also comes with a crasher missile as a sidearm to not have planes endlessly hover above.
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186 |
Current implementation works decently well, and also comes with a crasher missile as a sidearm to not have planes endlessly hover above.
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| 187 |
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187 |
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| 188 |
Feedback seems oki. But there is uncertainty about if disarm flak is fun as a concept or not.
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188 |
Feedback seems oki. But there is uncertainty about if disarm flak is fun as a concept or not.
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| 189 |
It also messes with bomber ai since theyre disarmed and won't return as some might expect, so is maybe meh even on those grounds.
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189 |
It also messes with bomber ai since theyre disarmed and won't return as some might expect, so is maybe meh even on those grounds.
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| 190 |
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190 |
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| 191 |
Another idea would be a very high velocity single shot AA weapon of sorts, but thats also sort of scary or meh.
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191 |
Another idea would be a very high velocity single shot AA weapon of sorts, but thats also sort of scary or meh.
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| 192 |
Another again would be a gattling AA, sort of like how toads autocannon works.
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192 |
Another again would be a gattling AA, sort of like how toads autocannon works.
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| 193 |
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193 |
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| 194 |
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194 |
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| 195 |
----
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195 |
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|
| 196 |
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196 |
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|
| 197 |
Bomb:
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197 |
Bomb:
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| 198 |
Plaguerat!
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198 |
Plaguerat!
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| 199 |
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199 |
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| 200 |
A terraform bomb that flattens terrain around it. It has bot pathing to make it easier to put into place to flatten your path forward, which helps with shore assaults too.
|
200 |
A terraform bomb that flattens terrain around it. It has bot pathing to make it easier to put into place to flatten your path forward, which helps with shore assaults too.
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| 201 |
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201 |
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| 202 |
The other thing included is nanoplague, at 8 bp rezspeed. With it, amphtanks get a neat tool to followup on large wreck fields or deep suicidal raids that revive as zombies again.
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202 |
The other thing included is nanoplague, at 8 bp rezspeed. With it, amphtanks get a neat tool to followup on large wreck fields or deep suicidal raids that revive as zombies again.
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| 203 |
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203 |
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| 204 |
Another idea for a unique bomb was a sort of lob bomb, that throws units in its effect straight up similar to how a lobster would.
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204 |
Another idea for a unique bomb was a sort of lob bomb, that throws units in its effect straight up similar to how a lobster would.
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| 205 |
It's a different sort of disabling effect. Another idea could be high impulse.
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205 |
It's a different sort of disabling effect. Another idea could be high impulse.
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| 206 |
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206 |
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| 207 |
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207 |
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| 208 |
----
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208 |
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| 209 |
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209 |
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| 210 |
N thats it so far.
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210 |
N thats it so far.
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| 211 |
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211 |
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| 212 |
Another idea that could replace overheating is watercooling similar to the old archer, where the water is used to enhance firerate and drains on shooting and/or while out of water.
|
212 |
Another idea that could replace overheating is watercooling similar to the old archer, where the water is used to enhance firerate and drains on shooting and/or while out of water.
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| 213 |
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213 |
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| 214 |
Springald, Hive, Mangonel and Anura seem pretty stable on land at least, with the other units still trying to find their footing and specific niche.
|
214 |
Springald, Hive, Mangonel and Anura seem pretty stable on land at least, with the other units still trying to find their footing and specific niche.
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| 215 |
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215 |
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| 216 |
I want to make the models myself when I get to that, but it seems sensible for the concepts to be stable before starting on that. o,o"
|
216 |
I want to make the models myself when I get to that, but it seems sensible for the concepts to be stable before starting on that. o,o"
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| 217 |
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217 |
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| 218 |
I'm still also sort of looking for an idea for a "normal" assault to then maybe put croc in a heavy assault role. But maybe theres no need for a light assault with anura around
|
218 |
I'm still also sort of looking for an idea for a "normal" assault to then maybe put croc in a heavy assault role. But maybe theres no need for a light assault with anura around
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| 219 |
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219 |
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Refumble: Amphtanks