| 1 |
[q] A Dante after firing it's D-Gun wasn't much of a risk anymore to other unit's it was with in it's previous state [/q]
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1 |
[q] A Dante after firing it's D-Gun wasn't much of a risk anymore to other unit's it was with in it's previous state [/q]
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| 2 |
I heavily disagree with that, although I agree with most other things in that post.
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2 |
I heavily disagree with that, although I agree with most other things in that post.
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| 3 |
I do so specifically with the opinion that Dgunte was a very different unit than Firewalker.
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3 |
I do so specifically with the opinion that Dgunte was a very different unit than Firewalker.
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| 4 |
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4 |
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| 5 |
[q] Because units that don't have to put themselves in danger very very rarely want to. And if you don't have to put yourself in danger the only real counterplay in optimal play is sniping/countersniping, which reduces the available effective options dramatically, and opposed to Firewalker or lance, can not be done by 2 Ravens with dante. [/q]
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5 |
[q] Because units that don't have to put themselves in danger very very rarely want to. And if you don't have to put yourself in danger the only real counterplay in optimal play is sniping/countersniping, which reduces the available effective options dramatically, and opposed to Firewalker or lance, can not be done by 2 Ravens with dante. [/q]
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| 6 |
Firstly, Dante being not snipeable like Lance or Firewalker does ignore the cost difference, so it would make more sense to compare it to Merlin. So, that argument still makes sense, but doesn't explain why the rework did not go into the opposite direction.
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6 |
Firstly, Dante being not snipeable like Lance or Firewalker does ignore the cost difference, so it would make more sense to compare it to Merlin. So, that argument still makes sense, but doesn't explain why the rework did not go into the opposite direction.
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| 7 |
Aside from that, the "Because units that don't have to put themselves in danger very very rarely want to." portion leads us down a different rabbit hole, that of artillery and range in general.
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7 |
Aside from that, the "Because units that don't have to put themselves in danger very very rarely want to." portion leads us down a different rabbit hole, that of artillery and range in general.
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| 8 |
What I am trying to get to is that one has to keep in mind that the changes are primarily motivated by the fact that @GoogleFrog had/has a specific vision of Dante and has changed it to fit this vision. You may like it or not, but this has clearly been stated multiple times. We literally have no other choice than to accept this.
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8 |
What I am trying to get to is that one has to keep in mind that the changes are primarily motivated by the fact that @GoogleFrog had/has a specific vision of Dante and has changed it to fit this vision. You may like it or not, but this has clearly been stated multiple times. We literally have no other choice than to accept this.
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| 9 |
That said:
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9 |
That said:
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| 10 |
[q] My experience with Dante in large games, for the last good while, is that people don't built it that much, and when they do it is a tanky Firewalker with janky controls. It was in an unstable spot where it has to either admit that it is a Firewalker (with proper UI), or stop being a Firewalker. [/q]
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10 |
[q] My experience with Dante in large games, for the last good while, is that people don't built it that much, and when they do it is a tanky Firewalker with janky controls. It was in an unstable spot where it has to either admit that it is a Firewalker (with proper UI), or stop being a Firewalker. [/q]
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| 11 |
- As said, I really do disagree that Firewalker and Dgunte had many similarities apart from having long range, fire-themed weaponry.
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11 |
- As said, I really do disagree that Firewalker and Dgunte had many similarities apart from having long range, fire-themed weaponry.
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| 12 |
- That Dante was not build that much in TAW doesn't match my own experiece, although it is anecdotal evidence in both cases and has to deal with the fact that both of us usually play at different times of the day.
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12 |
- That Dante was not build that much in TAW doesn't match my own experiece, although it is anecdotal evidence in both cases and has to deal with the fact that both of us usually play at different times of the day.
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| 13 |
- What does seem to be the case as well is that there are many(?) players that percieved Dgunte as a fun unit. It would be nice if we had a poll about that just to get a better idea on how big that group actually is.
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13 |
- What does seem to be the case as well is that there are many(?) players that percieved Dgunte as a fun unit. It would be nice if we had a poll about that just to get a better idea on how big that group actually is.
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| 14 |
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14 |
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| 15 |
As said, the now made changes were on the table for years. Back then, I argued that Dgunte was needed to keep certain other things at bay (see the spoiler-section), but this situation has changed quite a bit, so I don't think this argument is valid nowdays.
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15 |
As said, the now made changes were on the table for years. Back then, I argued that Dgunte was needed to keep certain other things at bay (see the spoiler-section), but this situation has changed quite a bit, so I don't think this argument is valid nowdays.
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| 16 |
Where I did agree though, at least as far as I remember, is that Dante was in an unstable spot, where it was essentialy two units in one. What I do remember though is that I said that it is important to understand why players were behaving that way, which in updated terms is: If Dante was "only" a janky Firewalker, then why people didn't just build Firewalker instead? Is it really because they just don't understand the game? To me, this seems to be a bit of an arrogant attitude towards them.
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16 |
Where I did agree though, at least as far as I remember, is that Dante was in an unstable spot, where it was essentialy two units in one. What I do remember though is that I said that it is important to understand why players were behaving that way, which in updated terms is: If Dante was "only" a janky Firewalker, then why people didn't just build Firewalker instead? Is it really because they just don't understand the game? To me, this seems to be a bit of an arrogant attitude towards them.
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| 17 |
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| 18 |
@GoogleFrog
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18 |
@GoogleFrog
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| 19 |
I have a concept of a new strider that would represent Dguntes other side while being in line with your stated design-goals and avoiding the undesirable elements of it's old d-gun application.
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19 |
I have a concept of a new strider that would represent Dguntes other side while being in line with your stated design-goals and avoiding the undesirable elements of it's old d-gun application.
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| 20 |
If you are completely opposed to something like this and absolutely sure that you would not want to implement such a unit ever, it would be nice if you told me this now, because that would prevent me from wasting a lot of time and energy. Of course, even if you greenlight this endeavour, I do not expect or even demand that anything from you - we all know that we have no leverage anyway. @StiofanKingofAwoo was willing to test such a possible unit in his mod, so that side is taken care of already.
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20 |
If you are completely opposed to something like this and absolutely sure that you would not want to implement such a unit ever, it would be nice if you told me this now, because that would prevent me from wasting a lot of time and energy. Of course, even if you greenlight this endeavour, I do not expect or even demand that anything from you - we all know that we have no leverage anyway. @StiofanKingofAwoo was willing to test such a possible unit in his mod, so that side is taken care of already.
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| 21 |
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21 |
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| 22 |
[spoiler]This
was
specifically
cloak
and
with
it
cloaked
lances.
One
has
to
keep
in
mind
that
lances
have
recieved
a
ton
of
nerfs
since
then,
even
if
it
seems
hard
to
imagine
that
lances
where
even
stronger
than
they
are
now.
Cloaking
in
general
has
some
more
counterplay
like
sparrow
now
as
well.
[/spoiler]
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22 |
[spoiler]This
was
specifically
cloak
and
with
it
cloaked
lances.
One
has
to
keep
in
mind
that
lances
have
recieved
a
ton
of
nerfs
since
then,
even
if
it
seems
hard
to
imagine
that
lances
where
even
stronger
than
they
are
now.
Cloaking
in
general
also
has
some
more
counterplay
(
sparrow)
now.
[/spoiler]
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On the Dante Rework