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Title: MatchMaker 451
Host: Nobody
Game version: Zero-K v1.6.4.2
Engine version: 104.0.1-355-g9aa8f99
Started: 4 months ago
Duration: 19 minutes
Players: 2
Bots: False
Mission: False
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Team 1
Chance of victory: 65.2%

GBrankPRO_rANDY
Team 2
Chance of victory: 34.8%

CHrankAdminDeinFreund
Spectators
GBrankscazybigbob

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CHrankAdminDeinFreund
4 months ago
(edited 4 months ago)

This is why i hate zk

Raiders don't beat skirmishers so all that remains is skirmishers and porc. Back when we had affordable facs at least you could try some different strategies.
+0 / -0


PLrankOrfelius
4 months ago
I also hate being outecoed the entire game.
+0 / -0



CHrankAdminDeinFreund
4 months ago
Eco doesn't just grow from trees. You build the counter to your enemy's unit to gain a temporary unit advantage that allows you to raid economy. If you never counter your enemy you can never gain the army advantage for a push.

And by countering I don't mean 150% attrition. A warrior can kill many times its cost in glaives.
+0 / -0


DErankkatastrophe
4 months ago
Try Firewalker.
+4 / -0



CHrankAdminDeinFreund
4 months ago
Hm, didn't think of that. Thanks for the tip.
+0 / -0


DErankkatastrophe
4 months ago
try more firewalker.
+2 / -0

USrankFealthas
4 months ago
Skirm-K + stinger meta + RPS = win
+0 / -0



CHrankAdminDeinFreund
4 months ago
quote:
RPS

you mean SSS? Skirmisher, skirmisher, skirmisher.
+0 / -0

USrankFealthas
4 months ago
But really,
I think games like this show how OP recluses are. Notice how they beat bandits, rouges, and thugs with almost 0 attrition. Their leveler sidearm is quite nice. The only thing that has kept recluses down is the fact that the rest of the spider factory is so trash.
+0 / -0



CHrankAdminDeinFreund
4 months ago
(edited 4 months ago)

No worries, just make factories so expensive that you are forced to use their garbage-tier units. Then give every factory some of those flaws which can then be exploited by some other factory. Now all units see use and no factory is overpowered because pre-game RPS decides randomly fairly. Use replays of godde winning against all odds to disprove factory rps.

In short: I didn't agree with the factory price increase and the experience since has all but changed my mind.

Once upon a time, zk was balanced towards every unit having its niche. But this balance didn't hold and people started abusing the cheap price of factories to just build the strong units. Fixing the cause is hard and requires years of work and testing, so why not just fix the symptom?
+0 / -0



CHrankAdminDeinFreund
4 months ago
I understand that as long as all units are different, more factories will nearly always allow better play and thus will be used. I just don't understand why we have to force 1v1 into this "beat your opponent with the limited toolset you chose in pre-game", whereas teams and FFA give you access to the whole range of units with factory costs being negligible. If the player is supposed to be penalized for needing to use a wider range of units, why make it dependent on the game mode and map?
+0 / -0

USrankFealthas
4 months ago
The thing is that more factories does not mean more unit variety, it just means convergence to a few optimal units ie grizzly/firewalkers/etc.
Units like recluse are horrible design because they make 90% of units irrelevant once 4-5 of them get on the field.
+2 / -0



AUrankAdminGoogleFrog
4 months ago
CHrankAdminDeinFreund, 800 is still really cheap. Air factories would make cost in the AA they forced, making them a little too mandatory. You are not forced to stick to one thing as 800m is nothing. I feel like if factories always cost 800 you would not even be considering a reduction in factory cost as a solution to any problem.

It also feels like you are completely overreacting to Recluse.
+0 / -0

PTrankraaar
4 months ago
the way raiders counter skirmishers or assaults doesn't scale as the numbers grow on both sides because dodging becomes very unreliable.


+0 / -0




EErankAdminAnarchid
4 months ago
(edited 4 months ago)

quote:
the way raiders counter skirmishers or assaults doesn't scale as the numbers grow on both sides because dodging becomes very unreliable.

It becomes less efficient, but unless there are riot escorts, it still works well enough, i think.

At low densities (vs one, or two recluses), a single Glaive can kill many times its cost in Recluse. In fact, killing one Recluse is five times cost, 60 vs 300! But if you send one glaive against five recluses, you will kill none. And if you send five Glaives against five Recluses, you will kill some but not all of them, probably. But if you send ten, i think the Recluses are done. The counter efficiency went from 500% to 250%.

I'm not sure what happens at 20 Recluse tier, but 20 Recluse is a 6k cost army. Probably your glaives merge into a Dante, or something.

Also i'm not sure how this progression fares with units which are raider-like but not "true raiders" - ones that rely on alpha or aoe to compensate for their lack of DPS. DPS becomes quite vital in these kind of scenarios.
+0 / -0



CHrankAdminDeinFreund
4 months ago
(edited 4 months ago)

AUrankAdminGoogleFrog I was actually in favour of allowing two factory plops even when facs were still prized at 600m. Simply because I love the added options you get from having two raiders, two assaults, the options of gs+ground start and so on. (This is pretty much the game mode I developed CSI in, as it plays a team game using a single ai controller)

If USrankFealthas is right about optimal units, then we have a balance problem imo. If you think having more factories would make games less varied, I'd expect the opposite to happen: I've played my last tournament nearly exclusively with cloaky factory, because it was strong in the meta and I was familiar with it. The easier it is to undo a bad factory choice, the less risk there is from trying something different.
+1 / -0