skirm of venoms vs pyros+puppies

Venoms have a brain damage!
Seriously, the skirmisher script don't work as good as it can.

While pyros are jumping, venoms (and not only venoms, but it is especially stupid for them) don't skirm away.
The reason is, that the skirm widget take heigh into accaunt, but pyros are faster getting close while they are falling down.

Simplified Example
| venom range, pyro jump high = 1
| pyro jumps to it's jump's zenit, venom skirms to distance of 1 - x, z and y
| sqrt(pow(0.7, 2) + pow(0.7, 2) ) = 1 // 0.7 distance in heigh and ground are 1 at all
| as the pyro is falling, it jumps even faster forward - not only down - as it can walk
| as the venom is only at a distance of 0.7 of normal, the pyro is kitting with insane speed
| 2 pyros do enough burn damage to kill that venom

Another point that makes them UP vs Pyros a bit more is, that they target the puppies while the pyros are jumping, making their first shot completely useless while pyros kill 1 or 2 venoms and don't take enough emp damage to be stunned completely.

Jacks - wich are supposed to be better versus riots, fail to to the huge emp damage.

Also venoms target the same pyro again and again - instead of the pyro which is closest to stun-time = 0.

I tried to use 3 Venoms + 2 cudgels early game and failed due to surrounding pyros.

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Result:
Venom dies too easily to pyros, need 2 shots to stun, behaves too stupid and has not enough AOE/range to survive long ranged raiders with that much burst damge.

2 Pyros + 1 puppie can kill 1 venom and 2 pyros retret - regardless of the number of supporting recluses/cudgels.
Venom together with recluse cost more than 2 pyros, and is too slow with killing together with cudgels, too micro intensive together with fleas.

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Solution:
They could work against pyros if we either
* fix the skirmisher code for close range units vs jumpers.
* lower pyros jump heigh
* give venom a cylindric targeting
* buff range; buff AOE*2 and nerf dps/2 both
* buff ROF - not dps
* buff speed
* buff health

I think most of you will prefer one of the first 3 options.

"!vote fix" for a fixed/venom-adjusted code
"!vote jump" for a lowered jump heigh
"!vote targeting" for a adjusted targeting

Can we !vote ban discussion-of-hypothetical-situations-that-have-never-been-observed-in-reality instead?

Also this part is blatantly wrong: "as the pyro is falling, it jumps even faster forward - not only down - as it can walk"
Jumping units cannot do any movement at all other than their jump.

Anyway I've made a fix for the unit AI prediction, though it's not in SVN yet pending further discussion.

Pyro: range = 260,
Venom: range = 240,

Who is skirming who now? If I'm reading the configs correctly, Venom neither swarms nor skirms the Pyro. Hell I even tested it, and it appears to operate with a normal fight order (move to max range start shooting).

This is seriously one of your stupidest threads Neon. The Venom counters the shit out of the Pyro.

The problem is that venom has a huge collision sphere and pyro does more damge to big colision spheres.

1 pyro can damage a venom far beyond 50%
1 puppie and 2 pyros can kill a venom and retreat savely (puppy absorbs first shot while pyros are jumping).

How is that raider < riot?
I don't think that 2 hits can stun pyro for 8 seconds - only the third.

And venom costs more than 1 pyro - it needs some units with actual damage.
Fleas run right into the stun range and are stupid somehow.

Because venom doesn't kill.
1 Venom needs at least 160 Metal in real damage dealing units.

if you can kill 200 Metal with 480 Metal and retreat, your second run can make cost (Second venom then overrun the real damage dealing unit)

if 2 pyros jump in, both attack 1 venom.
the puppy attacks this venom too.
1 Venom dead.

The free pyro attacks fleas while it is out of range of the other venom.
once the jump is ready, it can jump over the stunned pyro.
And attack venom.

If you assume that the attacker attack at the weakest spot, Venoms might be a small bit better, but not able to defend your metal extractors.

If there are groups of 3 like "Ravaged", the pyros are free to raid your eco.
-- you can not spam stardusts everywhere.

5 Venoms againt 5 Pyros, even if the Venoms manage to stun 1 pyro, I will propose that the venoms not distribute their attention equally.

You may likely end up with 1 to 4 stunned and 1 attacking pyro.
That afford so much attention of the player, that it can hardly be balanced.

This is my strongest point. Please don't ignore it.

"I agree that venom (and racketeer, and moderator) AI isn't great. "
I wrote a widget that one time...

Ah yes, paralyzer spread fire.
Paralyzers in selection, when given an attack-all-in-area command, will spread their attack queues such that they split up the targets among themselves. It's a bit buggy but works great for racketeers.
Supposed to work for gnats and venoms as well but behaviour is less ideal for them.

No Neon, you've been talking about rushes, not 5 pyro's. Once you get into large masses, the AoE on Venoms becomes unavoidable, and it becomes way harder to dodge recluse and Cudgel shots. On that note, cudgels butcher Pyro's, unless you micro obsessively and dodge every shot. Add in some EMP and they're toast.

Why would you push out with Venoms early anyway? All your harassment is fleas. Spiders vs Jumpers, he'll have to put up defenders/llts everywhere he expands, because puppies don't make cost on fleas and Pyro's are too expensive to be everywhere fleas are. So expand defended too, using Venoms to bolster your LLT's, and if you want to make an aggro push into mid with any recluse/cudgel/venom combo, you do it with your commander which has more than enough DPS to finish off stunned pyro's. If you want your Comm at home, just make sure you keep your army within retreat range of some static defense (Or a cliff, which you can zip up and down to your advantage even with a pyros jump).

Either way when it hits mid game and you have your LLT line meeting his, you can just demolish all those defense he made to stop fleas using your recluse/venom/cudgel. Pyro is basically the only thing he can field, since your spider deathball will stun/skirm Jack's, Moderators have no significant range advantage over Recluses, and Firewalker, while super effective against Recluse/Venom balls (but -not- cudgels), is too expensive and vulnerable.

If your Venoms are getting caught in the open early on by Pyros without an LLT or commander to back them up, you're doing it wrong (Especially considering venoms go at 2.7 and Pyro's 3.0, they aren't slow like other riots).

Spiders on fight or when stationary on manouver don't change target though.