I freely admit I'm a noob who needs to play more. I'm working on it as best as real life allows, trust me. In the meantime I have some stupid questions I'm hoping some veterans might weigh in on. * One fusion connected to an otherwise non-overdriven mex will instantly add 2.12 mexes worth of income. * One fusion added to a 5-mex grid currently overdriven at +100% will instantly add 1.99 mexes worth of income. * One fusion added to a grid of pretty much any size currently overdriven at +300% will instantly add about 1.0 mexes worth of income. * If the grid is even as horribly inefficient as +700%, adding a single fusion will still instantly add about half a mex worth of income. In other words, for every fusion you build you will instantly get somewhere between half a mex and up to three mexes (for a 10-mex grid only overdriven by +25%). My question is this: at what point is it no longer worth it to devote metal and buildpower to adding fusions to your grid? How many mexes do you expect to capture with 1000 metal in units, and how long will it take?
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This question is simply too philosophical and open-ended to answer easily. It depends on the type of map, the number of players, how many units and defenses the enemy has, and how many units and defenses you have. In some cases I would say put 100% of your metal income into units even though your team has little-to-no overdrive. In other cases I would say to make more overdrive, even though your team already has a ton. You're kind of asking "What is the best car? At what price level is it not worth is to buy a better car?" Someone people want a $3k beater to drive around, some people want a $2 million Veyron, and some people don't want a car at all because they live off road and need a truck.
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Okay, that's a good point. I'll make it a more specific question. Say you're in a medium-teams game on a mid-sized land-based map with typical metal resources (neither "very poor" nor "very rich"). It's been going for about ten minutes. Both sides are playing competently and relatively aggressively. The middle of the map is in contention; parts of it have changed hands more than once. The middle of the map does not have an especially vital strategic resource (chokepoint, supermex, geo spot, etc). Both sides have some AA. One side has the advantage in air but is not yet firmly dominant. Both sides have decent but not complete intel. Neither side is currently rushing a superweapon. Does that give you enough context to frame an answer to the question: would you rather spend 1000m on a fusion to increase your metal income by one mex's worth, or units? What if the fusion bought you two mexes' worth? Three?
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I dont know about all that but overdrive is not very nessesary, players like godde rarely overdrive on more than one mex in small games.
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In that case, units. There is almost ALWAYS a unit (or conbination of units) for 1k metal that will allow you to break through somewhere. It might be a skuttle, or cloak + roaches, or a new lab to change to spiders and go over a hill somewhere, or maybe a ramp to send regular units over that hill, or maybe a com morph, etc, etc. I've generally found in ZK that you can almost always win with a "clever" tactic that requires little metal. How do I personally OD? I link my starting 3 mexes (or however many I have) with a handful of wind generators just to get started. After we've reached the point you describe where we are no longer making any direct progress, I'll tell a con to start linking far away mexes with lines of wind generators spaced three apart. The con will have build priority set to "low", so that he's only building when I'm generating more metal than I'm spending. End result? Effective overdrive (not too much, not too little) that slowly ramps up over the course of a game. It has the side benefit of providing energy to the more complex units later in games, like shields, cloaks, etc.
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It depends on the metal output of a mex. On CCR I'd go get me a fusion, or two. It also depends on your current energy income - is it DSD, Folsom or even Lost?! Then you should already have several small windgenfarms. You never build fusions on these maps anyway, except to link the southern metal spots in DSD, but that's not at minute 10. I think 'lope's said it all. Just place a solar-/windgen or two next to every metal spot, build more wind when there's a mountain, or get a geo, otherwise go kill them enemiez. Fusion's only worth it on semi-speedmetals with no other decent energy source.
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for me it depends on my team. if my team is heavily weighted towards passive-defensive players, to the extent where even all out berserk aggression from me will result in no advance but at the same time no territory will be lost if I contribute nothing.. then I would support over-driving until the teams income is enough for them to actually achieve somthing useful. my ideal team is a team of manic all-out aggressors.. defensive players are a waste of communism metal. however, if you do find yourself in a situation where neither side can quickly defeat the other, then investing non-stop into overdrive is intelligent. else-wise, invest in units and aggression.
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TL;DR: Making more mexes (purple) > Making sure every single mex is on the grid (Blue) > Making excess E through Geos and Hill Winds (green) > Superfusions (yellow). Here are the basic rules: At the start of the game, everything is purple (no OD). Until all mexes up to your frontline are capped, purple is good. Mexes are always better than OD. Stage two is getting everything dark blue (min overdrive). Put a solar or two winds next to every single mex right up to the front line. Build a small e reserve to make sure you have more E than M and that overdrive is actually hapenning (geos are great for this). Usually your team is over-building E before even linking everything though so you generally don't have to worry. Linking mexes to grid is always better than making more E (unless it's a supermex). Stage three is building a solid e supply by morphed geos and wind hills (fusions should only be used when these are not available) to power that overdrive. This usually gets you into teal/green overdrive. Stage four is making superfusions. Always morph geos first. This is the stage when pylons become good. This will usually get your overdrive yellowish. Beyond yellow overdrive, you really should have won already. Note that you can win at any stage, if you're winning when your mexes are all purple, just keep pushing, capping mexes, reclaiming, and you'll probably have the momentum to win. If you ever get stalled, go to the next stage. For your hypothetical scenario, you only really need to make a big push for mex control if you're holding less than ~50% of the map. If the enemy holds more mexes, they can OD just as much as you can and more efficiently, and you'll lose any OD war. In this situation, always attack instead of making E for OD (stage 2, blue is always good, but not building big E reserves). If you're holding ~50% of the map, capping more mexes (unless supermexes) is often not the goal unless the mid is very mex heavy. On the front line, you're unlikely to hold mexes or get them in the grid for very long. Mostly you want to capture reclaim fields, this will give you the momentum you need to push for the win. For supermexes (3.5+): Get it on the grid ASAP. Instantly put 4 solars around it the moment you catch it, use pylons to link it to a geo/fusion, or plonk down a fusion next to it. Watch the colour: It will probably stay blue this whole time (mega effecient!). In big teams though, IK hit the nail on the head by saying it depends on your allies. With good allies you can win with no OD. The whole reason I emphasize getting EVERY mex gridded over building excess E is so often players are overdriving into green and yellow when there are still mexes (perfectly safe and behind the front line) that are purple.
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I personaly use 2 solars in front of mexes as a sheild and a LLT if i think it is likely to be scouted.
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Sak's advice seems good. I'll steal that, if you don't mind. Personally, I have never done OD on any large scale in a team game I was playing seriously. Wind/solar lines, yes, that I have done. A fusion is rare and superfusion never. Geo spots though, those are sweet. Rather than following his advice about keeping momentum, depending on your enemies, you may actually wish to halt attacking. Obviously, only do this when you have more than half the map's eco (note: not necessarily half the map!). My rule of thumb for this exception: You have military advantage (whether by unit count or prescence of heavies that they don't have) You are sitting on a defensible spot (eg. not at the bottom of a cliff) You have/will have an economic advantage from holding this spot If you halt an advance and start building supporting light def on top of a supermex, your enemies will come to you. They want it, and don't want you to have it. Now, if you have military advantage, often this will result in you defeating their attack or losing the mex only temporarily. If you are in a position to respond to any attacks they mount, and have advantage, you can force them to bring battle to you. Which places all wreckages right at your doorstep. If you do this though, I recommend building arty and putting pressure on your enemy, as well as contributing troops to allied frontlines. Sitting on an advantage spot is good, but you don't want to give your enemy too much breathing room. If you are not advancing, help an ally advance.
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Saktoth, thanks immensely for your thoughts on the subject. quote:
For supermexes (3.5+): Get it on the grid ASAP. Instantly put 4 solars around it the moment you catch it, use pylons to link it to a geo/fusion, or plonk down a fusion next to it. Watch the colour: It will probably stay blue this whole time (mega effecient!). |
Why would the color of a supermex stay blue? Isn't color based on the overdrive level (+50%, +100%, +200%, etc)? And isn't the overdrive level dependent only on the amount of power per mex, not the mex's base output?
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AFAIR, colour is based on effeciency, E/M ratio. How much metal you're getting out for energy put in. OD operates on percentages, so x amount of energy drives up production by y%. This is why a mega mex is so valuable, and why it will soak up most of your overdrive (You may notice, when using megamexes, that they are at 800% or so when your other mexes are on maybe 50%).
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the general strategy to win is not grow your eco faster then he does, its to make his grow slower, whcih you do by attacking and area control, harassment.
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Like others said if you control more than 50 % of mexes and enemy is making huge defenses its a good time to start od. porcy maps, long and not width its usually good to od. But the question was when to stop od. Every fusion you add will repay itself eventually. But at around 250 % its better to start building troops imo. Its not hard math but you should have enough metal income to get a good army going.
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If your enemy spams defenses - especially shields - he cannot attack with this defenses. Example situation: north defenses, south nothing. You attack south and only spend some afford on scouting north for surprises. Example situation: small, easy to defen frontline, porcy enemy. If your enemy porcs at a front line which is wider than the range of 3 or 4 Stingers, he spend a lot of metal into defenses (and AA!). Don't attack instantly! Use your metal to overdrive and arty 50:50. Keep scouting and prefer wind hills before fusions. Attack when you 1. get scouted or 2. have enough arty to surprise your enemy. He can't move his porc to you - if he move toward you, keep pressure to force him make a new defense line (more wasted metal). If he make a screamer, use 2 tacnukes to kill it. If he makes an anni but no screamer, use Lichos. If he spam both, make Athena(move carefully) to scout his Screamers and use 1 tacnuke(drain shields) + 1 tacnuke per screamer/fusion/pylon. Now push! NEVER make more than 2 fusions without scouting your enemy! If you can make 2 fusions, your enemy could have finished a half Krow, a half Dante(+hub), Licho, Ultimatum or something else. If someone porcs, use Athena to scout what their facs are doing (fleas do a great job) or which units move along their factory way-points. If there is nothing, they make either Krow, Bantha or Nukes! You don't want your eco to get nuked because you didn't scout properly. Good scouting could cost your team as much metal as a fusion, but can cost the enemy a Krow!
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Saktoth, thanks for the info re colors/efficiency. That actually makes sense to do it that way, since you want mexes to be at uniform efficiency rather than uniform OD levels. swappan, thanks for answering my question. :) Neon, I think that was one of the best posts I've seen you make. Thanks. Everyone, thanks for your perspectives. Please keep 'em coming!
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@neon, dats noob advice. Assuming you have room to retreat and flank, if the enemy builds defenses you should just mass-build assaults. If you both continue in this way, you will soon have a large mobile force that you can smash through one small part of the porcline and gut the base behind, while he will be left with a wall of useless defence.
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It depends on what assaults you are building. I would not recommend zeus vs DDM, say. Although if you are meeting heavy porc on rough terrain (no tanks), it can get a bit screwy. Buy a tremor?
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i recently watched a FFA where godde used vs a DDM 1) two spies, which he gave wait command, almost same walking range from 2 sides, which simulataniously paralized the DDM, then killed it with regular army (DDM had nothing else supportive there. 2) ultrashiedball, which could absorb everything (around 15 shieldwalkers?). i like overkill.
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LOL, he spy-stunned a DDM? And I suppose the other player just let him, eh?
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