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Jump Jet Balance

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10 years ago
I am new. I only have a poorly developed opinion on balance.

Jump Jet seems bad as a stand-alone faction, relying on Pyro as a robust general-purpose raider that falls off mid and late-game. Most of its units seem niche, overly so, to the point where they are not practical even as a faction to dabble in.

Most notable these are: The Puppy, The Moderator, and The Placeholder

-The Puppy-
This unit seems to want to be effective at reclaiming wreckackage and attacking single large units with overwhelming burst.

In practice its range seems too slow, and its speed and health insufficient to do its job. Its value seems entirely limited to its 'build power', which is unfortunately restricted in only building one bad unit - the puppy.

I would like to see its range increased and its damage lowered to normalize it, maybe with a bit more health as well. If this proves too effective, decreasing its accuracy seems to be a better solution than decreasing its range. As it stands it has been shown to be too difficult to get into range and too unrewarding once it has. This all has the side-effect of giving JJ low-weight anti-air as well, even if it is had.

As a comparison, look at how much it costs in relation to the damage it does now, even under optimal circumstances. It is very rarely cost effective, even if you assume it consuming wreckage. You could instead be reclaiming that wreckage with a constructor and getting something good.


-The Moderator-
As it stands now, the unit seems reliant on an unintuitive and practically exploitative relationship between slow damage and shields. With the existence of the Freak and the Placeholder, this is more lackluster than ever.

Jump Jet would rather like a more functional skirmisher. Well-micro'd pyros and firewalkers serve as effective riot units, but the need for situational long range is real. Personally, I would increase the weight of moderator, and increase the maximum ability of the slow to around 75% - a proper crippling number. I feel JJ is the heavy-weight bot faction and this should be embraced, and I feel their unique positional mechanics should be renforced, but it is important to actually have this unit able to cripple something. If this is realistic, knockback might be useful (so few things have it), disarm, or murder.


-The Placeholder-
I want to like this thing. I really do. As it stands, it is too unreliable, too clumsy, and too expensive for its effect. If it were to remain as it is, I would recommend a slight range boost.

Instead, I would like to see the effect creating a physical barrier across the ground, creating a zone that simply stuck units in their current location, or creating a status effect that prevents movement. Gravity wells are cool, but they are just too unpredictable without some measure of additional consistency (longer duration, longer range, higher arch, etc).


Anyway, this is my view on the factory. I am interested to hear the opinions of others.
+2 / -0
Skasi
Jumpfac was designed to be niche, hence why it's also called "Jumpjet/Specialist Plant".

Puppy is just on the edge of useless and op. Any more range and it can not be kited by raiders and becomes the ultimate counter.

Moderator was designed before Freakers dealt slow damage. Personally I like the new Freakers and think Moderators could be completely replaced by Placeholders. The only niche it's filling that I can think of is mobile AA support and it's epic.

Placeholders require tons of micro. That's all I can say.
+3 / -0
10 years ago
The placeholder really needs to be on holdfire for it to be used effectively. I think you are meant to use it in combination with pyros to torch the units that get clustered by it. There has been talk about changing the moderator for a while now but nothing was done to it. The puppy is a weird unit overall. It is devastating when used well in the right situation, but those situations are quite rare. Generally the jumpjet fac is very strange and should be played on maps where you can take full advantage of jumping units.
+0 / -0
10 years ago
Crazy idea: jumpies/specialists need a skirmisher to counter assaults, especially zeus. The problem is that the moderator doesn't damage, but we wouldn't want just another general skirmisher. So what special kind of skirmisher is there, that counters zeus really hard? The dominatrix! :) I know it doesn't really fit in jumpy fac because of movetype, but it is a specialist skirmisher. So moving domi to jumpfac might improve balance?
+1 / -0

10 years ago
... I think a high-weight skirmisher would be sufficiently exciting to be worthy of the jumpjet/specialist fac. Now, personally I'd rather re-jigger the units around and play with a real heavy scale skirmisher using the Firewalker model, but the simplest approach would be to just give the Moderator a plasma cannon and 500 cost or something (I guess you could give it a disruptor, but we've already got a disruptor-skirmsiher in the Buoy).
+0 / -0


10 years ago
I think that the Moderator is going to be replaced with the Freaker weapon and Placeholder. I think the main problem of the factory is that Sak wants to add some spammable skirmisher unit to deal with Zeus. I think that such a unit would not work in conjunction with the rest of the factory and that we already have enough factories which can rely on skirmisher lines.
+1 / -0

10 years ago
AUrankAdminGoogleFrog

What do you mean? It seems like a skirmisher with a good low-velocity projectile would have obvious synergy with the Slowfreak and the Placeholder, as well as picking off sluggish units like the Zeus.
+0 / -0

10 years ago
GoogleFrog, what would you desire instead? Would an expensive skirmisher be good?

Also, I have been thinking on this, and it might be best to re-purpose puppy into a riot role by giving it splash. It already is quite bad at trading favorable against hardened targets, and if its range is viewed as an issue, perhaps it could be used to shore up the factory's weakness against light raiders early-game.

Mostly though I am interested in what might fill their needs against units like the Zeus, if not a skirmisher.
+0 / -0
quote:
BErankFlipstip
So moving domi to jumpfac might improve balance?

What about giving moderator the domi weapon? That would be very good vs. Zeus. And moderators are usefull again.
+0 / -0
I heard from some people that Sumo is Up. I don't think so.
But I tested some nice stuff. I gave Sumo double flamethrower + napalm explosion at dead. Flamethrower is OP vs. small stuff but the napalm explosion was nice. So that everytime a Sumo dies there will be a fireball like that from napalmmissle.
If you jump in heavy porc you can stay there because when it dies it can make cost with burning porc down. Con is, every time sumo die there is no wreack I don't know if it was something I coded wrong or if just the fire killed the wreack. But that can also be pro, because less reclaim in enemybase + no comeback from lazerus.
+0 / -0

10 years ago
On the subject of moderators.

Watching games with them, I feel much of their weakness in the need to micro them for them to be remotely effective.

Currently, there is no way to conduct attack micro effectively while kiting. The units simply dont respond to it optimally. Meanwhile, moderators often have no effect after the first shot to units. They must be very strongly micro'd to be useful.

It may be possible to fix them with just better AI, if people dont want them changed.


Likewise, I have been looking at the placeholder, and still feel it just needs a strict buff.
+0 / -0
To fix whole JJ fac we need a unit taht has similar weapon to banisher. Long reload, high alpha, mid range, mid AoE. If placed on legs, with fancy jupmy engines (yay!) it would be less... creepy than banisher, and that would make a nice skirmisher, and also has great synergy with placeholder.
Also moderator should have rackeeter-like style of attacking enemy, and slightly bigger range, so it can suppot ur/ally's units from behind front line. Also adding it a bit of dmg (just like an outlaw) wouldnt do much harm... I guess.
I also though of some kind of new feature. We have EMP which disables units, we have disarm which makes units harmless, but movable. Can we make ''glue'' weapons, which will make uunits motionless, but still capable to defend for few seconds?
Giving moderator this kind of stuff and adding a bit of AoE would synergy with placeholder nicely (clusterfuck enemy units with PH then keep them in place with moderator and burn with FW).
+0 / -0

10 years ago
PLrankFailer We have a unit that disables movement. It's called the placeholder.

The factpry desperately needs a Zeus counter, but my designs for a skirmisher were not 'spammable', they were explicitly non-spammable such as a unit that relies on a non-stacking DoT to do a large amount of its damage.

Puppy makes cost against metal extractors almost all raiders: Glaives, Scorchers, Bandits. It does NOT make cost on the sub-50 cost scouts (Dart, Flea) though, and won't make cost if the enemy kills any of the puppies before they launch (Which the longer range Bandit and Scorcher can do). You can also attack gronud with the puppy, making it immune to all damage and quickly closing range. It can do this 3 times before it dies. This way, you can close range with units it outranges, even leap into LLT's, dodge defender projectiles, etc. This, like everything in the factory, is incredibly micro intensive.

If you lowered it's damage by even 2%, it would no longer 1-shot metal extractors, and thus would go from trading 1-1 with a 25m gain to trading 2-1 with a 25 metal loss.
+0 / -0

10 years ago
Respectfully speaking Saktoth, you are describing why the Puppy has such a terrible state of balance, not why it is good.

1: The puppy, for a number of reasons, does not make even close to cost against any raider in practice.

2: You know what is cost effective against metal extractors? Every raider in any situation where a puppy could get off 1 shot.

These are not stable balance points. They are incredibly precarious, to the point where it really could be designed better,
+2 / -1

10 years ago
The Puppy makes cost against ANY raider that does not kill it before it launches. In a situation where they are running at eachother, this is basically all raiders. In early game 1v1, you can totally use Puppy as a conventional raider unit.

Every other raider is effective against metal extractors, yes. Which is why the Puppy, which is a raider, also needs to be effective vs metal extractors. In fact that's why the unit was added, players could naked-expand vs Pyro because it's too expensive and it's coverage is too small. The Puppy prevents that.
+0 / -0
10 years ago
On the subject of giving jumpjets a good skrim, why not bring back the morty? A weapon like the assault cannon could work for it. It would work against slower units (especially zeuses) without being really really spammy because it would die to raiders.
+0 / -0


10 years ago
Jumpies should skrim for their crim.
+0 / -0


10 years ago
the puppy is utterly shite and does not make cost any raider, even glaives, if the raider is remotely microed. Its only use is for hoovering wrecks you know you will not be able to reclaim. It could be 10m cheaper and probably still be underpowered!

I made a big post on the jumpies that addressed this stuff. The sumo isn't so much UP as just utterly generalist and dull, and weighted too expensively.

+0 / -0

10 years ago
Multiplayer B227809 2 on Quicksilver 1.1
+0 / -0

10 years ago
A good example of a game of Jump against its best single matchup - light vehicles.

Pyros counter scorchers effectively, and the opponent failed to realize this and kept building them for too long.

Puppies are incredibly swingly and countered by most basic units. They were useful for assassinating an unprepared, unaware, and completely undefended commander, but were not useful for the rest of the game.

Jacks are effective against poorly micro'd/commanded units, but are weak against kiting to an extreme. Still they remain very useful specialists.

Moderators and Placeholders remained completely unused.


I feel this game was an effective example of all of my issues with the faction. I feel with experience against them, your opponent would have won, and that only because of the rarity of the faction did you win.
+2 / -0
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