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Spy

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From here: http://zero-k.info/Forum/Thread/6531?page=2#120705
quote:
AUrankAdminGoogleFrog
I think the Spy damage change was to make the target and health of the Spy more relevant. Most heavies require two Spies when on full health but perhaps one if damaged. Reaper is stunned for longer with two Spies. With 15k damage you could simply use one Spy vs most things in most situations, lacked nuance.

Makes sense from a design perspective, not sure it was needed for balance though. But at this point any reduction of cost, cloakcost, etc makes it better as an early commsniper (The abuse case). At 280 cost + 420 for the e, it doesn't compare very well against the Shockley at 30k EMP for 600 cost. They're mostly 1-shot, and neither of them have a guaranteed hit, though for different reasons.

I wasn't sure the lineup was really hurting from the lack of anti-heavy, but... the real need for having a strong spy in the lineup would have to be in Crabe vs Crabe wars though, where though I've seen use and it seems viable, looking at the stats, it's half the cost of a Crabe if you include the E, and you need two to stun a stationary Crabe for only 10s (not the full 30s). That looks terrible for the spy when you include the coordination required from the Spies, the splash from the Crabe, decloak by wandering/burrowed fleas + the metal costs of units to kill a still fully armoured Crabe: And even if you get it while moving for the full 30s stun with 1 spy, it stops and immediately armours up anyway.

Spider vs Spider climaxes into Crabe vs Crabe very easy, I'm not sure this looks good for the counter mechanics here.

I've said before that spies are the counter in this matchup:
http://zero-k.info/Forum/Thread/1126#8889
+1 / -0
I agree with everything said here (both from GF and Saktoth) but I'd like to add that I had no trouble spying the enemy crabes in this game: http://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/336402

Not sure how it plays out in 1v1 though

EDIT: after some review it looks like I was greatly helped by my opponent not turtling his crabes (reducing the spies needed from 2 to 1). I can see how in 1v1 paying for two spies plus the e to actually use them, with the risk that it still might not work, makes spy pretty unappealing. It's probably cheaper and more reliable to switch for racketeer.
+1 / -0

4 years ago
oh is this why Klon is spamming spies in every freaking game now
+0 / -0
4 years ago
spy can stun moving crabes just fine, so i think its working as intended? all anti heavies have problems with sitting crabes.

other than that, a minor increase in dmg would make them a lot more useful vs reapers, which i think is desireable. currently the emp will fade off after just a few seconds on a full health reaper.
+3 / -0
Puh-lease. "Infiltrator". :P

I think the answer to spiders not having a counter to Crabe is to add an unit of the class that counters Crabes.

That's "artillery".
+2 / -0
If recluses had +60-80 range they would be artillery. But that might be too neonstormy...
+0 / -0

4 years ago
I wouldnt mind seeing recluse get a very small buff, I've always felt they were ever so slightly underpowered
+2 / -0

4 years ago
If Crabe is the single unit the matchup climaxes to, perhaps the problem is the Crabe?

One thing that could be interesting would be to change Crabe health/armor 4000/x3 -> 3000/x4. I think that would be Quant's because it puts more emphasis on the armor mechanic. This way porced Crabes are unchanged, but it is easier to punish moving Crabes and there is also a nice consistency bonus in removing the singular case of x3 armor.
+3 / -0
4 years ago
quote:
If Crabe is the single unit the matchup climaxes to, perhaps the problem is the Crabe?

This
+0 / -0
punching moving crabes already is hilariously easy. the unit as it is seems fine, if anything then the fac as missing a real arty as EErankAdminAnarchid said.
+7 / -0

4 years ago
+1 for the following:

- Crabes being 3k HP with 4x armor. More for consistency than balance. Possibly reduce cost a little to compensate since Crabes are a large part of spiderfac power.

- Recluse is weak. I think more as a result of where they sit in cost relative to their counters, and how hard countered they are when the opponent does respond. They currently don't have enough of an impact to be that frail.

- If spies can stun moving crabes that seems to be working perfectly, though if the crabe then armors up that seems a little silly.
+3 / -0

4 years ago
The difficulty with buffing Recluse that I see is in the narrow usecase where they can use their unusual firing arc to fire over a ridge or something, and the opponent cannot return fire easily or at all (think Badlands), they already seem quite good.

I don't say they don't need some tweaking and/or straight buffs but it's a thing to keep in mind.
+0 / -0
Nerf Crabe range? Or start experimenting with building recluse-ditches with Weavers?

edit: the Spider lab's heavy/anti-bomber AA is an argument for the drone-artillery unit.
+0 / -0
quote:
- Recluse is weak. I think more as a result of where they sit in cost relative to their counters, and how hard countered they are when the opponent does respond. They currently don't have enough of an impact to be that frail.


some time ago, i had the impression that recluses were the backbone of spiders (int the timeframe before crabe hits the ice). is it this my glorification of acient times or what has changed? can someone list recent changes to other units in spiderfac? i guess redback filled a nice niche which overlaps with recluse, but does the job with better efficiency, so the recluse packs vanished.

---

quote:
Nerf Crabe range?


i like crabe as it is. if you decrease range, spiders need some arti in exchange. or a unit with mobile drohnes like funnyweb.

---

also, placeholder feels more right in the spiderlab (the mechanic is like web, i know its balance-wise right where it is)
+0 / -0
Glad that people feel it's working quite well already with 1 spy and a moving Crabe, but I do feel that the fact they instantly close and get the armour bonus while stunned is a bit rich. For half the cost of the Crabe itself in spy+E? Steep. If it works in practice though, it works in practice, this is mostly just reflection and theorycraft by me.

As I said in the other thread I linked to, Crabe is just an interesting unit. It definitely is outside the standard counter mechanics, being a skirm range, assault HP unit with riot AoE. But the curling up mechanic adds really interesting counterplay with artillery, baiting, etc.

Several people including myself have wanted to add a drone spider for a while now. But Google has veto'd it until drones have better controls. Reasonable I think.

An artillery unit that sits safely in the hills and can bombard things with impunity feels nice to use, but is potentially really, unreasonably hard to counter on certain maps. The drone spider is a solution to that, we can give it plenty of range and let it stay safe in hills, but there are ways to mitigate it's damage (Make AA) other than spamming shields. The traditional response to artillery is (should be) to just attack it, so it's important to have another option for spider artillery. Another potential form for spider artillery is low enough damage that you can repair through it, with a ballistic projectile to get the range bonus from hills so it's not just a boring arty unit.

On recluse changes, I've been floating the idea of removing it's enforced missing (ATM it does not lead correctly) and slowing the projectile a little to compensate. That wont help vs Crabe, it might make recluse good enough to field on it's own merits, but that still means the Crabe is the factory climax since it's great vs recluses. We could massage both the ranges a little perhaps so that the Crabe needs to unpack to chase or needs to be somewhere high up to counter them, though. I think that's not a bad idea actually if we want to bring recluse balls back.
+1 / -0

4 years ago
I honestly don't think Crabe needs changing, it is well balanced. You said "on some maps" and this is correct because I've seen quite a few games lately where somebody has built Crabe and that metal sink has backfired on them quite hard. It can be either a very difficult unit to kill or very easy, depending on how it's being used. Also, most labs have a good answer to crabe, spider vs spider is not a match up you see often and it's one that I'm not convinced is broken, at least I don't think it's as bad as some other lab match ups, like the way amphibs revolves around grizzly so much.

Spy is the designated anti-heavy unit of spiders, it's all they've got in that regard, if you think spy isn't good enough then I don't see why this issue is about Crabe.
+2 / -0
4 years ago
quote:
AUrankAdminSaktoth
but I do feel that the fact they instantly close and get the armour bonus while stunned is a bit rich


this. used to be different, why was it changed?
+0 / -0

4 years ago
disable/emped should disallow armour bonus.
+1 / -0


4 years ago
quote:
disable/emped should disallow changing armor state.

FTFY for precision.
+0 / -0

4 years ago
I think crabe is fine as is. Recluse could use a buff in HP for its cost it is too fragile, or get more range to be able to take on Stingers.
+2 / -0
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