spamming caretakers in a team game is very toxic and leads to a unbalanced game. caretaker spammer is only black hole for metal until it might pay back after 20 min or so when usually over half of map is lost. :/
+10 / -5
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great so everyone should play sim city and we compare "screenshots" how large it is etc?
+1 / -0
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That was about removal of the income. Making it shared would probably have a somewhat larger chance of getting through, but if you think about it, that would introduce a new gadget just to keep a feature that is completely worthless.
+2 / -0
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Yes. I am not against removal. :)
+0 / -1
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It allows players to unfairly bypass communism and rewards sitting at the back spamming huge nano farms, isn't that undesirable/silly?
+3 / -1
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There are arguments against both Removal and Sharing so here's a recap: Sharing:* does not touch FFA. In FFA, con income can help make comebacks which is fun. [Spoiler]I don't think it actually helps unless you completely screw up and I think it's okay to punish screwing up. It's easy to make a windgen with your hidden con before you die so energy is not a problem. You can reclaim either wrecks of your destroyed base, or any surviving units for metal. You can also use reserve to help save some resources or perhaps try to acquire some through diplomacy. Example FFA comeback without con incomes:   B362409 9 on TheHunters-v3 * keeps the total team income unchanged (in all modes). This helps smooth the economy and makes things slightly cheaper, changing it would affect the pace of the game. [Spoiler]I don't think the impact of con income is noticeable outside the nanofarming case. There was recently a change that made things slightly more expensive but it wasn't really tangible either. Removal:* removes exponential economy. Exponential economy encourages the user to keep recycling the income back into creating even more income. Compare to overdrive which provides diminishing returns with square root. * removes non-territorial economy. Overdrive incentivizes people to fight for territory and take care to link grids while nanofarms can be stacked in a corner. * does not require a performance-heavy gadget to poll cons and distribute their income. * improves purity. Income is effectively Metalmaker Sidearm - cons already provide buildpower so providing tiny amounts of metal and energy is none of their business: that's what mexes and energy generators are for. Buildpower can already be changed into other resources through reclaim.
+4 / -0
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the whole reason for caretaker eco in the first place is dumb communism changes so I hardly think that is the answer if I spend all game spamming fusions now I wont eventually get to the point where I can quickly build a silo or striders, all it does is slightly boost teams production of useless shit on the other hand if I spend all game spamming nanos I will eventually have enough personal eco to do the things I want its pretty inefficient and crappy but it is result of stupid eco changes
+5 / -0
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^ spam shield/tank cons and storages, steal the reclaim of dead useless shit that teammates produced before someone else does (reclaim is 100% private)
+2 / -0
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The problem with allowing private eco income is that it rewards being a useless shit and sitting at the back making eco for the first 30 mins. It encourages porc and makes for boring games.
+2 / -1
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I'm no expert but I'm pretty sure eco was never 100% private. If someone spend most of game sitting at back making eco, it is still beneficial to the team but gives enough private eco for individuals to branch ahead in tech. You can call it "being a useless shit" but that doesn't mean it isn't a legitimate and good strategy, if someone techs to nuke, he is pretty useless for most of game but if team can hold out the nuke will often straight up win. Of course there is still reclaim but that is kind of a different matter entirely, it's not something you can rely on having, it's situational. Feels like the whole concept of teching up has been removed from ZK with that change tbh. As somebody who liked to just focus on eco in team games, feels like that play style is basically dead and shitty caretaker spam is the new alternative which nobody really wants.
+4 / -0
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quote:
the whole reason for caretaker eco in the first place is dumb communism changes so I hardly think that is the answer |
 U DESERVED YOUR DEATH PUNISHMENT!
+12 / -0
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overdrive eco in team games isnt dead, its much more efficient than nano spam. if you are on a halfway decent team it does not hurt too bad that you have to share returns, if you arent good yourself its actually better for the team. quote:
Feels like the whole concept of teching up has been removed from ZK |
i think that was the whole point from the beginning, because sitting in base and teching/porcing makes for boring games.
+5 / -0
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quote:
i think that was the whole point from the beginning, because sitting in base and teching/porcing makes for boring games. |
But so does sitting in base waiting for your [insert win condition] to be complete. Slowly zero-k will become too sane, too balanced and all the fun will be gone. What good is a game if all the fun is gone? Yeah you can have this perfect balance that appeals to ultra-competitive types, but for the rest of us it will be a dull experience of spam X unit until Y comes. On a related note: I miss the old giant singu farms exploding.. singu is rare now.. Gameplay doesn't feel more fun, it feels more repetitive. Same old shi eldt balls, same old recluse spam, same old same old. Back when singu farms were a thing, at least assaulting the singu farmer would provide an exciting moment of suspense. Will my ravens get in to kill the singus? Will my skuttle hit them? Will there be a shiny? Now days I get the feeling of comsnipe being the only suspenseful thing left and often times I'm not on the edge of my seat like I used to be. Team games are more tame, much less like lion taming and more like putting a dog through obedience training. Frustrating and boring. Gimme my lion back! He was more exciting.
+1 / -0
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In my opinion the best solution is to revert the economy changes and make overdrive 35% private, 65% shared. This way everyone is happy. IIRC it was 75% private, 25% shared before the change. I personally would love to see a return of the old singu farms.
+2 / -0
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Another possibility would be to make overdrive return more [or completely] linear. I feel that z-k should keep a bias towards territory over eco (somewhat of the inverse of BA) but it makes for a much more exciting game if a loosing team can eco up and make a come back. Sure, occasionally there's a surprise nuke midgame but It seems like there aren't very many reversals late game any more. Which has encouraged folks to vote to resign once their team has lost 5/8ths of the map.
+1 / -0
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@_Shaman nice that u like exploding singu farms and good old days. True they changed economy because team had nothing from the back sitter rushing a game changer while team gets pushed back by enemy team because enemy invested metal in fight units. Now rushing a singu is kinda good too, because it helps team economy, yes TEAM economy not single person economy which is kinda 0 metal for team if he doesn't bring units to front. Same with caretaker farms.... for me it could stay but its a team game not a SimCity team game or such and u didn't write anything to that egotrip argument.
+0 / -0
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I'm pro communism, gameplay seems way more fluid now. The ability to spam huge eco farms then have a large private income only generated fun for the tiny selfish minority, while making the game frustrating for all the players doing the actual fighting (their contribution becomes meaningless in the lategame, whilst they have done all the work, fought for all the territory, kept the team alive into the lategame).
+6 / -0
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The change has not brought better team gameplay. It's great you have this illusion of a perfect world where everyone plays at a perfect level, but in practice it will never happen. Everyone has different playstyles, some people are better off at eco than frontline fighting. And you may not see it but it is sometimes better for the entire team for some newbie to be ecoing rather than fighting. What? The argument is for a compromise between the old and new systems. Honestly, some of the income should be private. Practically speaking, you'll never have perfect cooperation between teammates and not everyone will be motivated to play as a team player. With some private income, you can at least mitigate this human factor. Complete sharing of income is a good idea on paper, but in practicality, it's more frustrating than rewarding. It means more coordinating, means less individual productivity and means more raging. If you have to spend 90% of the game coordinating everyone, it's bound to devolve into an unenjoyable mess. With 35-65, there's still enough incentive for someone to make e and enough return for the frontliners to not be as pressured because someone decides to play sim city.
+0 / -0
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quote:
if I spend all game spamming fusions now I wont eventually get to the point where I can quickly build a silo or striders, all it does is slightly boost teams production of useless shit |
The problem is your team's production of useless shit, not the eco system. Playing with noobs dragging your team down will never be fun at 2400 elo. There isn't a problem when you can rely on your team to play right. You won't get that in a 10v10 with the current player base.
+1 / -0
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