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Good ZK Maps

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8 years ago
Inspired by this thread: https://springrts.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=34101
I thought we could think about good ZK maps and get some answers for smoth.

So what is a good ZK map? I think there are four maps types to consider:
  • 1v1
  • Teams
  • FFA
  • Chicken
Small team game work on many 1v1 maps and large team maps so I left that category out. Same for coop vs AI.

Can we identify our best maps and figure out what makes them good? How important is mex placement? Terrain? Size? Visuals are important but how much does that bias our current assessment of map design? It would be great if someone could extract the replay data and say which maps are actually played the most. That data may be more useful than a few people theorizing.
+3 / -0
I favor team map games that start in the corners. It has the biggest frontline and don't end up so easily in porcwars. Also there has to be some cliffs or sneaky passways.
Not in favor of easily fortifiable start bases with a lot of mexes inside.


Stronghold_beta: http://zero-k.info/maps/Detail/31483 (corner start, nice variety cliffs)
Mercury_v1: http://zero-k.info/maps/Detail/8022 (corner start, nice blocking areas, looks a bit ugly)
Sacrifice_v1: http://zero-k.info/maps/Detail/21397 (corner start, nice hills a sides and flat in middle, not the most handsome textures)
KochCanyon-v02: http://zero-k.info/maps/Detail/7537 (16x16, a bit porcy but enough space for flank attacks)
Tabula-v6.1: http://zero-k.info/maps/Detail/34970 (nice variety in heights)
Calamity_V1: http://zero-k.info/maps/Detail/25946 (nice variety in heights and water areas which block areas on land and makes flanking via sea possible)


size:

I think 16x16 is a good max size, maybe 18x18. 20x20 is big and only for real big teams.
12 or smaller frontline mostly ends up in a porcwar.


For looks I like:

valles marineres: http://zero-k.info/maps/Detail/7931 (nice color combo)
Valiant_Saltscape: http://zero-k.info/maps/Detail/8792 (nice color combo)
Grts_DesertValley_012 http://zero-k.info/maps/Detail/17927 (nice variety)


+0 / -0


8 years ago
Stronghold_beta is an interesting case. I don't think it play well in teams (in my experience). Perhaps people are not used to the style of play. It is metal heavy and required a lot of land grab when played corners. It could work well with a small number of large mexes instead of its current layout. Sacrifice_v1 sort of has this problem too but I find it tends to be more fun. Perhaps because the large-ish open area acts as a focus for fighting and breakthroughs.

I particularly agree that Mercury_v1 works well. I don't think I have seen Calamity_V1.

Would starcrafty type maps be improved with a border of water instead of sheer cliffs? I think they would look better and some amphib interaction could occur.
+0 / -0
8 years ago
water border also allows gunships to fly below radar coverage and other similar sneaky tactics, I like it a lot
+0 / -0
Titan V2 is close to the perfect large team game map, so I would begin to analyse big team games by looking at its properties.

Titan Duel is also one of the very best small team game and 1v1 maps.

Both maps are gorgeous, but I dont think this plays any part in what makes them great.
+1 / -0
I wrote a list up with Orfelius a few months ago on the Github wiki. I'm only really concerned about 1v1 here.

I'm not sure about Barren (that tends to get mired in defenses), but I stand by the rest of them.
+0 / -0

8 years ago
quote:
Would starcrafty type maps be improved with a border of water instead of sheer cliffs? I think they would look better and some amphib interaction could occur.

I think it's definitely good to provide any level of access.
Some SC-like maps already provide a decent amount of access to the outer sea (Isle of Grief, La Isla Bonita, and the non-featured Fetid Marsh).
IMO providing extended access on most of the perimeter instead of a few select areas would only be good if Amph/Hover was at some disadvantage on dry land because else they just become mandatory picks.
Anyway, this sounds fairly difficult to enforce. Editing existing maps in a sensible way could require quite a lot of work and none of the main mapmakers is a ZK person so it could be hard to convince them.


On topic: SC map terrain seems to work very well. Flats and cliffs mean Vehicle and AT pathing has advantages and disadvantages in various places. Large open areas leave a lot of room for interesting maneuvers and positioning but not excessively so due to ramps.
+1 / -0
8 years ago
quote:
and none of the main mapmakers is a ZK person

Who are the main mapmakers then?

For ZK variety matters the most. Every map should feel different in some way and enable different strategies and mobility or lack thereof. However it is also important that certain factories do not gain too much of an advantage over the others (like spiders, amphs, hovers etc).
+0 / -0
8 years ago
I kinda like Hide and seek, but the cliffs are a bit too extreme. The middle is not pathable and not so important, so positioning is important. Unfortunately radar is a bit limited to help with this. The nicest part is that you don't start on the map edges, so you have tk expand in all directions and raids can come from all directions.
+0 / -0
Functional maps are best.

Nobody cares about realistic or fancy heightmaps, the most popular maps are always flat except for occasional ramps.

Same goes for the texture, my favorite map textures are always ones which are least distracting and easy on the eyes. The red hue of Titanduel and Red comet are 2 good examples, whereas that new map Zed is an example of trying too hard.

I think the most important feature which is harder to recognize or analyze is the gameplay. Some maps can be surprising in this regard, for instance Geyser looks like ass and has a very simple heightmap yet I always seem to have a fun game on it. Other maps like Zion, Seths Ravine or Coagulation Marsh look pretty good and have complex heightmaps but are rarely played for the simple reason that the gameplay just isn't good.

I think PLrankOrfelius map Isle of Grief is an example of a recent map which employs good common sense in all these categories, though the color choice could be better.
+5 / -0


8 years ago
I really like Zed, I just find the water color a bit much - dark close to black murk would make the map more visible.
+0 / -0
It's not water, on Zed. It's instagib.

My 2c:

1) Availability. A good ZK map allows for dynamic games with as much factories viable as possible. This qualifies both geyser and IOG on the same premise, but doesn't qualify Zed or Zion. Coagulation was an attempt at this but failed because vehicles/tanks are not really viable on Coag.

2) Openness. A good map should not be uniformly covered in mexes and have too few chokepoints, because ZK has cheap and effective static defenses. Both of the mentioned criteria (having narrow chokes; having uniform mex layout) make porc more viable than mobiles too often. Ravaged offers a nice balance between openness and chokepoints, in no small part because of how mexes are arranged in clusters.

3) Visibility. The map's visual language should make gameplay properties of terrain visible at a glance. Ideally, this language should be shared for all maps, but that requires coordination, dedication, and/or limits artistic freedom of mappers.

4) Aesthetics. As long as eye candy doesn't conflict with any of the above three, i want all the eye candy.

5) Bonus point: being mixed. This kind of falls under Availability, but even when map is not entirely mixed (e.g. doesn't allow ships or have contigious water bodies), having areas which give small or large benefits to hovers and amphs is nice.

Ideally, i want ZK to move from "open sea vs dry land" schiso split, and to have all maps have at least some water; with ships moving from open-sea tanks into shore support / limited-passability-high-power role (like trains, but with water), and to be built around engaging with ground units.
+4 / -0
quote:
GBrank[Fx]Drone: the most popular maps are always flat except for occasional ramps

EErankAdminAnarchid: Availability: games with as much factories viable as possible.
Openness: a nice balance between openness and chokepoints.

sc style

in hindsight it's pretty obvious that sc would have arrived at a good mapping paradigm given it was the dominant hardcore competitive rts for the last 20 years
+2 / -0

8 years ago
Anarchid makes good points.

For visibility, some maps are an immediate turn off when changes in the heightmap are hard to see. It should be instantly obvious whether or not bots or vehicles will be able to pass.

The fine line between porciness and openness is super important category of defining fun gameplay. Field of isis sucks in 1v1 because of the stupid chokepoint layout. Coagulation also fails in this category because the terrain is narrowly split into too many segments so that there is no big open area anywhere on the map, meaning there is never any big battles, only awkward navigating around narrow passageways.

My favorite maps eye of horus and titan duel are mostly open flat land but have just enough chokepoints to make porc spam viable.
+0 / -0
quote:
sc style

in hindsight it's pretty obvious that sc would have arrived at a good mapping paradigm given it was the dominant hardcore competitive rts for the last 20 years

I don't know that it necessarily arrived there so much as started in the only place it could, which happened to be good; SC is a quite different game and inherently has less map variety than ZK on a macro scale (limited and discrete heights, much more discrete resources, etc.)

For that matter, the fundamental principle of Starcraft maps we're referring to (mostly flat, some chokepoints and ramps) haven't changed much in 18 years - look at Lost Temple.

---//---

I agree that there is a trend towards the mostly-flat maps being the most enjoyable to play on. There are exceptions - for instance I like Badlands, Obsidian and Intersection - but TitanDuel is (I believe) the most !mapped map for a reason.
+1 / -0
8 years ago
All of that is very true AUrankAdminAquanim yet... SC like maps work very well in ZK. Particularly the old Wings of Liberty maps such as Desert Oasis and Xel'naga Caverns. Perhaps it is worth looking up the rest of the older ones to seek some inspiration for the future designs.
+0 / -0


8 years ago
quote:
For that matter, the fundamental principle of Starcraft maps we're referring to (mostly flat, some chokepoints and ramps) haven't changed much in 18 years - look at Lost Temple.

Lost Temple was a bit of a fluke for its quality. If you go back and look at the old SC and BW ladder maps (they are in a folder conveniently labelled "Ladder") most of them were pretty different compared to what is remembered and the design philosophy SC2 started with. A lot more open spaces, far fewer expansions, far less standardization in mineral patch counts, or some maps with basically just one path.

That tangent aside, the current SC map design philosophy is pretty solid, but I'm honestly surprised it translates as well as it does to ZK, mostly due to how much stronger static defense is in ZK than SC. I mean, one of the big motivators for the small chokepoints (other than the pre-SC-hacking technical map editor limits) was to allow Terran players to wall off against early Zerglings, since Terran static defense is only AA (their AG option requires Barracks units to operate).
+0 / -0

8 years ago
In general
[Spoiler]

(the rest are shorter I promise)

1v1
[Spoiler]

Small Teams:
[Spoiler]

Big Teams:
[Spoiler]

FFA:
[Spoiler]

Chickens:
[Spoiler]
+0 / -0