Battle 415954 detail

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Fealthas 7 years ago GS start effectiveness seems to be very dependent on what aa your opponent has available to them. Something like crashers is able to quickly respond to banshees nullifying their main advantage. +0 / -0
Shadowfury333 7 years ago Casted on YouTube Capricis's responses were pretty on point overall, though the early Crasher was especially good. That and the final play. +1 / -0
SnuggleBass 7 years ago Interesting game. Yeah, GS feels like a coinflip. I wouldn't recommend it on flat maps just because of crasher specifically. It's workable if there's lots of cliffs to juke them with, but that isn't what happened this game. Capricis you need to stop panic morphing your com. That crasher would have come out faster if you hadn't have morphed simultaneously, meaning you likely would have saved more infrastructure. Also, later on when you were having e issues, you morphed your com when that takes away from the little e you do have being spent on more e production. When recovering from a wind drop it's crucial you do so with utmost efficiency. I liked the caretaker/HT/gauss proxy. A nice bit of interlocking synergy there, and the gauss AoE was taken full advantage of in that narrow choke. Great thinking. +0 / -0
GoogleFrog 7 years ago What is your tier list for beating a gunship start? How does a flat map end up as a coinflip, don't all the factories do reasonably well? +0 / -0
GoogleFrog 7 years ago On the replay, I think Fealthas had a chance with better Hovercraft usage. He mad a lot of not-Scalpel when Scalpel would be significantly better than not-Scalpel vs a Ravager/Scorcher/Leveler mix. Hovercraft can be hard to play because each of their non-Scalpel units has a narrow role while Scalpels themselves are slow and vulnerable. +0 / -0
SnuggleBass 7 years ago FYI I'm not making complaints GF. This was just talking strategy. [Spoiler] On large flat maps (and this is off the top of my head): - LV - hover - spider - cloaky? - shield? - amph - HT - JJ Somewhere between cloaky and amph is the sweetspot where GS doesn't feel like an RPS win. I'm not sure precisely where that is, and like I said, it's off the top of my head. Flail being of a similar quality to crasher, but hover lacks micro scout and flail is heavier and thus more susceptible to cheese. They do have a nice advantage in that scalps smooth the transition against a ground switch. If LV or Hover survive initial aggression, I'd wager it's gg. In this game Capricis pushed his advantage well enough, but he had the entire map bar two isolated corners and could have had twice the economy he did. Crasher and flail are basically super fast huge range riot skirms against air. Scalpels on crack. Spiders have a very consistent start, almost certainly scouting the opener with time to react. They then get to exert huge pressure on the GS player's expansion with fleas while never being in any doubt as to what they're up against. Venom/redback is also good for smoothing your transition (no good against brawler or rapier, but unbansheeable). The only issue is the poor granularity of tarantula, and relatively low stopping power for cost. Cloak and shield are both pretty similar. Their raider game is hampered but their AA is small and difficult to get rid of. Gremlin's a bit worse early but shines later. Amph are okayish. Their AA is not so expensive that you can't make it early, but it's also slow and with average range for an AA). It's also more about burst than DPS, which is more suited to ambushing planes as they go past than stopping GS. Ducks are not as bad as other raiders against banshees, but they're still kited by rapiers. So they can serve as an early answer but I feel the hype surrounding their AA abilities is quite over-stated (Re: that game we had awhile back where you deleted my quackslought with rapier ball). Buoy can deter rapier too, but buoy is very slow. HT has a high weight AA that has difficulty actually causing attrition to brawlers. It will stop them, but you need multiple copperhead to kill them. Meanwhile, brawlers are flying and counter the rest of your factory and most of your statics too. HT also has difficulty stopping GS expansion. JJ has the same high weight issue that HT has, but add to that that it's slow. Jumping great but no good when you're dragged half way across the map to catch up. Puppies don't work against GS. I'm yet to see placeholders work against GS not for lack of trying. Pyros are a complete non-option. Jacks can't reach, moderators can't trade favourably against anything bar possibly rapier. +0 / -0
Fealthas 7 years ago (edited 7 years ago) Hmm here's my tier-list -Lv - crahserss are perfect for early banshee defense (costs same as banshee too). Fast and good alpha. -space - nothing comes close -hover - flails are ok but you need like 2-3(harder to mass because of cost) of them to 1shot and they can't chase really well. -gap - difficult but workable maybe -HT - copperheads have huge range and are fast but lack alpha (are expensive though). Panthers can also hit banshees. This doesnt really matter though and HT should be lower because they are somewhat unplayable 1v1 as a fac start (or atleast handicap you). -gap - anything below here is garbage in no particular order - would not recommend -cloaky+shields - both of their aa is slow and low/no alpha. Both raiders lose to microed banshees. -amph - aa is super slow. It also fires in salvos of which you need like 3 todo anything. Ducks can hit banshees if banshee player doesnt micro and run away when rockets are launched -jj - even slower aa and expensive too. Puppies have some aa capability but are easy to run away from. -spiders - expensive slow aa. It is true that venom/redback beats banshees, but what it does not beat is 1 rapier, so this type of army does not threaten GS player much. It is also slow and does not defend well against banshees that are non suicidal. I also have to disagree with y'alls love of gremlins. Later on their lack of alpha doesnt really matter, but they are still slow and shortish range. Later in the game gunships are relegated to a more supportive role anyways(away from front lines, no raiding) so aa being good doesnt matter. Invisibility doesnt matter too much because you can deduce where they are enough for it to matter. Faster aa's are better because it can reposition quicker. GS only advantage later in the game is their speed, as their air status no longer protects them from a significant ammount of metal spent anymore. +0 / -0
GoogleFrog 7 years ago I think JJ is underrated here. Freakers are fairly fast, cheap and their slow is amazing in that it can make Banshee strikes take losses that they would not otherwise take. +0 / -0
Anarchid 7 years ago (edited 7 years ago) I disagree about Vandals. Keep in mind that you get three vandals for one banshee, and that 5 vandals already pose a credible threat to gunships as a thing. Pair that up with many shieldbot units - especially Thugs - carrying, well, shields, and with racketeer being one of the best flex-AA units, and you get a cheap, gunship-defeating, porc-crushing force. Vandals are awesome. Maybe not Crasher-level awesome in raw stats, but they do get the better pathing and lighter weight. Most certainly, they are not as crappy as Gremlin. They get comparable DPS, better range, ~~are faster~~, and are two times cheaper. There are two situations where i commonly pick shields: when i expect the enemy to play gunships on a medium map, or when i expect the enemy to go raaar. Edit: Vandal is not faster because Sprung picks nits. +1 / -0
Sprung 7 years ago Nitpick: Vandal is slower than Gremlin (81 vs 87 elmo/s). +2 / -0
mojjj 7 years ago (edited 7 years ago) thats an 6 elmo difference. +4 / -0

Title:	1v1: All welcome!
Host:	Elerium
Game version:	Zero-K v1.4.5.0
Engine version:	100.0
Battle ID:	415954
Started:	7 years ago
Duration:	12 minutes
Players:	2
Bots:	False
Mission:	False
Rating:	Competitive