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CoC-question

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so, there is a contradiction in the CoC that bothers me because of a recent incidence.


3. Cooperate With Your Team
[...]
Understand that not everyone on your team will be willing or able to communicate and cooperate to the same degree; have patience with them and do your best even so.


"Not being able" is completely fine, but not "willing" makes no sense. In the incidence i talked earlier we kicked someone that sat at the back playing sim-city for multiple games in a row even if asked to at least participate. The person clearly knew english as shown later when they complained about the kick in the forum. I know very well that we shouldn`t kick people but at that point noone wanted to play if said individual would take part. It is not a new player either. (683 games played by the time i make this post)

So, what to do? Either kick and risk mod-action or "just don`t play" which would result in 7 people not playing because one person is unwilling to show the will to be part of the game?

It might be useful to rethink how the code of conduct is formulated so i don`t end up in a no-win-situation.

Thanks.
+2 / -0
3 years ago
Kick or vote yes for kick makes you a bad guy.

Use truthful words to tell him he is being stupid makes you a bad guy. And I doubt kind kitten and sugar words have any effect when one knows english and has many games under his belt but still does stupid things.

I dont remember exactly what was the one warning I got once, something about "You should resign blaa blaa something and you should leave/stop playing".

But how its in CoC now, theres really nothing you can do. "Do your best", well if ones best is sim city then thats it. "Have patience with them and do your best even so". = dont kick and keep playing to your best!

But then: "Do not try to make your team lose. Do not sabotage your team or any of your teammates. Do not do things in a game just to cause problems for other players. Do not deliberately play poorly in order to ruin the game."

----> "Note that using strategies or tactics that others disagree with is not griefing and is allowed, as long as you are attempting in good faith to play well and are not trying to ruin others' enjoyment of the game."

That last, so you are allowed to do whatever... maybe he was using sim city strategy which is allowed? And doing it in good faith? He must not have been trying to ruin others enjoyment.

I find it best to just not give a shit. I have cared about winning but Ive been moderated to submission.
+0 / -0

3 years ago
In first we need then define what is meaning 'cooperation with team'.
You see if FIrankKapy thinks that my startegy to skuttle enemy coms is not cooperation then he is right? Or i have my own choice what starategy to use in game no matter what every other think? I had game where i was blamed cuz i build 'useless units' (skuttles and widov) and they are 'loosing because of it'. I was playing JJ and my allies at that side was spiders and cloaky. They lost their front to recluses, badger and some unit spam from enemy. Yes i later build firewalker and assist (and then they got bombed by air). However i don't understand why i was blamed for loss if only thing they needed was just build crab spire which countered that all recluses and badgers.. They couldn't cooperate themselves to win but they cooperated to blame me.
Of course there is cases where team start building two super weapons and player who started second don't even try read marks or chats that he is wasting resources. Or special lobsta strategy when morph big com to 10k and sit base with it.
Do shooting with firewalkers, tremoers is 'cooperation with team' when i have cloaker with snitches there or spy ready to stun enemy units? And then he continue fire wit that units while my units decloak and GG. Or some team memebers think that i build my cloaker specially for his kodachi or pyros when i doing snitch thing.
Or even better - i start mid playing with two lobstas who build big ball of units, active reclaim but cant build any radar or mex and going to feed many time with wrong units. When i start rage then answer is - 'why you are so toxic'?
Also our pluk trolling. Its cooperation when one pluk reclaim everything in front to build his DRP, nuke and then take all fame/awards for victory while his teammates pissing their blood on front?
Or even crane air? Morphed moho in mid base? Unprotected singu? Dirtbag spam? Storage spam? Detri rush?

+2 / -0
3 years ago
Making units is always good and at least makes it look like you are trying. Frontline un-cooperation and base un-cooperation are different. Actually, if I get friendly-fired by new players tremor or please-fix-firewalker-aiming or such its not that bad, thats worth like a marker or two(three, four....), and marker with "stop". But seeing someone with hundreds of games at base doing absolute shit is much more annoying.

2 DRP is stupid, or more likely hilarious at that point, but keep building 2nd even thou youve been told to stop 10 times is annoying.
+2 / -0
3 years ago
Don't overthink code of conduct, it is more of what you might call 'a set of guidelines' anyway.
+0 / -0
quote:
2 DRP is stupid, or more likely hilarious at that point, but keep building 2nd even thou youve been told to stop 10 times is annoying.


Humanization point: having the same x people make DRP/Zenith/Starlight is bound to dry up any fun for those wanting to control such weapons.

You know exactly who those people are too. The very people who do it literally every game and never give anyone else a shot at doing stupid rushes. Unfortunately there's so many people who can do stupid crap before you're crushed due to a lack of frontline saturation. And not all cheese is as effective as what it replaces. This leads us to the utility conundrum:

Do we let the pro who does this shit every game to do it or let a newbie try it out who will likely fail but have more fun than the pro?
+1 / -1

3 years ago
@HoovesNHorns

ok, then we have a set of guidelines that make no sense in themselves.
+0 / -0
GreatMane
3 years ago
I think the CoC is very careful to prevent situations where players punish unintentionally bad gameplay. Doing this sacrifices some strictness in how hard you should be trying.

(slightly edited with formatting for emphasis)
quote:
Do not grief. Do not teamkill. Do not try to make your team lose. Do not sabotage your team or any of your teammates. Do not do things in a game just to cause problems for other players. Do not deliberately play poorly in order to ruin the game. Note that using strategies or tactics that others disagree with is not griefing and is allowed, as long as you are attempting in good faith to play well and are not trying to ruin others' enjoyment of the game.

However...

(in DO)
quote:
Play team games as if you will play to the end.

(in Cooperate With Your Team)
quote:
Play as if you mean to play a full game.
+0 / -0
I have observed that people who are playing in ZK games are often exceptionally and mindblowingly bad at making reasonable judgements about whether somebody else is playing deliberately poorly or deliberately uncooperatively. This even extends to moderators who are playing a game, from time to time.

As such, whether or not the Code of Conduct does, should or will make any given degree of playing deliberately poorly or deliberately uncooperatively actionable, it seems to me like a VERY bad idea to have other players in the game, in the heat of the moment, adjudicate these kind of things.
+0 / -0
I agree on that and that is the dilemma:
Neither do I want to kick people nor do I want 7 people to get game fun ruined because of 1 player putting their personal fun over them.



on the specific case: as said, we tried to talk to that player over multiple games over multiple days/nights and got no response, but as soon as they got kicked (and in a single instance 2 days ago pre-game) they were able to articulate themselves in a good and clear english. I can`t judge if they play deliberately bad or not, but i have to say that it seems pretty safe to assume that they are deliberately uncooperative.

However, no mod-action has been taken so far so i guess i make a fuzz about nothing.
I just have to admit i see your point of this setting a bad example so i would like to have clearer guidelines of what to do.

TL,DR: its not about wheter or not it requiring mod-action, it`s about the guidelines being so vague and contradicting that they are useless for practical application.
+0 / -0

3 years ago
quote:
I agree on that and that is the dilemma:
Neither do I want to kick people nor do I want 7 people to get game fun ruined because of 1 player putting their personal fun over them.


That's why i'm starting to sort which game i play seriously and which troll. Sometimes still i m in troll mod from start. Yes i'm sorting if team deserves serious play from me. Sometimes i feel sorry for some players in my team who fought seriously while i trolled so in next game i try seek my 'redemtion' and play seriously. I know that its bad practice. Some players in team even make me automatic troll. Sometimes i start in troll mode but later switch total seriously. And games won in such manner is best ones. I have seen that even Firepluk had such games.
+0 / -0

3 years ago
quote:
However, no mod-action has been taken so far so i guess i make a fuzz about nothing.


Your guessing is wrong. You make fuzz about something important even it cant be 'put in frame' in CoC. For lubsters such discussion of course is empty but for people who understand this is chance to bit think about things they never think too much.
+2 / -0


3 years ago
quote:
Neither do I want to kick people nor do I want 7 people to get game fun ruined because of 1 player putting their personal fun over them.


A game being "ruined" is rarely the result of one person playing suboptimal or for themselves. Often it is a combination of actions both preventable and unpreventable that culminate in sweeps or one sided games. Ill give you an example of a game that happened months ago without any names involved or map it was on.

This match was a 6v6 on a mixed map. With most players starting middle and 3 of them going gunships with one other player going hovers and myself amphs. Turns out not many players started right side (exactly 0) meanwhile the enemy side had a normal start. Was it the fault of any of the gunship players that would eventually result in a totally unenjoyable game? Or the one hover player who started mid right and completely ignored an entire flank?

Answer: no one single person was to blame for this. This was a result of poor communication, inadaptability, and a terrible start. A single cog being slightly out of place does not ruin the entire machine to the point of absolute one sidedness. Often it's many cogs missing or out of place (suboptimal play), structural damage (enemy raids/strategic plays), and some external conditions that make games one sided. Not that random noob making a little portress in the backline or certain individuals who play for themselves. Often its the combination of those two things combined with underperformance/enemy overperformance, and all the little things that happen in the game: The one mex that took you 30 seconds to get to, the time it takes you to grid up, the lack of energy in the first 60 seconds that causes you to excess a bit, the lack of raiding or that 98% attrition.
+0 / -0