Loading...
  OR  Zero-K Name:    Password:   

Pyro and Jumpfac

79 posts, 2441 views
Post comment
Filter:    Player:  
Page of 4 (79 records)
sort
Right now, Jumpfac revolves entirely around Pyro until late game, when you can start to field sumo/firewalker.

Pyro is a great, interesting, high-micro unit. But it is very monoculture-like. Moderator is exclusively a support (and only on flats), and Jack lacks the versatility to be used for much more than clearing an area for Pyros to rush through. Puppy is only good situationally and fairly easily countered, it has little synergy with Pyro.

Pyro is also too strong in some circumstances. Jumping up cliffs and getting behind a factory often spells the doom for a player, they cannot build while the pyro is attacking it, and the Pyro can often hit the commander (or anything he tries to make) through the factory, killing both Comm and fac. Experienced players can often prevent this, but the potential for taking out a whole player with a single pyro is there.

The hole in the jump factories lineup is a proper riot unit. The Pyro has to be good against raiders for this reason, and it's last few rounds of buffs were focused in this direction to make Jumpfac start-viable.

Thus I'd like to suggest that the Pyro be split into two units. One is an AoE fire unit with a leveler-like weapon with a DoT on it, which explodes (as the old pyro did, which was cool) into a fireball on death. I'd also like it's jets to leave behind a trail of persistent fireballs when it jumps, creating linear zones of area control, so that the jump can be used to gain rage, advance or for cliff mobility, but also be used to seal off chokes and create walls of fire if jumped laterally. Unlike most riots, the upfront damage on this unit would be fairly low: it relies entirely on AoE and DoT. One problem with the design is that on-the-ground fire DoT's are inherently good vs buildings, but the damage can probably be low enough here. The cost range would be similiar to the Pyro to synergize. The speed would be slightly slower, but still fast for a riot.

The Pyro would then be an anti-building and anti-heavy focused raider. It can have an inaccurate flame weapon (like the gnat) or a slower moving projectile (If we put in the noexplode-only-damages-once thing). This means a Pyro rush can be countered more easily by raiders, and a proper jumpfac rush requires you to build both units.

Anyway, just a concept I've been toying with. I'll probably make the unit and stick it in game for people to /give and see if it's any good.
+0 / -0
isnt the puppy the spiderlabs riot unit, it beat evry other raider thats out there

hell puppy makes cost against almost anything other then porc

also the pyro and the newpyro seem too micro intensive and unweildly to use

at least give some stats for the unit, just words dont make much sense and are verry abstract
+0 / -0

6 years ago
exploding into fireball on death, leaves behind a trail of fireballs when jumping. I support this unit :).
+0 / -0


6 years ago
totally agree that jumplab is monoculture and puppy stinks
+1 / -0
6 years ago
Puppies are actually pretty good. They trade cost efficiently against almost all early game units.
+0 / -0

6 years ago
Basically bring a split between a riot raider and an anti-building raider, right? That's a good idea in general for "boundary-breaking" units (hovers/amphibs/jumpies) - units that burst in from undefended cliffs/seas will either take a long time to tear down the eco they've arrived in or will be vulnerable to removal by raiders.

Your riot-pyro sounds like even more of a micro-nightmare though. I mean, I love the ideas, but I'd want to see stuff like that on heavies and striders, not the mainline of the lab.

Your second pyro unit really sounds like it needs a light disintegrator (slow, multi-hitting), although a light-disintegrator kind of violates the amount of damage players expect from a disintegrator.

Does the lab really need an anti-building raider? I mean, the Jack is supposed to be the assault unit (but it's rather nimble and riot-y as assaults go).

Thinking it over, the "no-multihitting flames" or even just nerfing the pyro's damage and buffing the "on-fire" damage would firmly push the Pyro into a riot role. Once it no longer relies on multi-hitting and mainly relies on either (a) lighting units on fire or (b) single-hits, it will no longer be able to quickly destroy factories and solars but it will still make mincemeat out of raiders. Then maybe it could get enough health that you wouldn't lose 1000 metal in a blink if you take your eyes off them.

Of course, expanding on the conclusions above, the obvious next step would be to replace the melee weapon on the Jack with a light disintegrator, but melee weapons are awesome and a "light disintegrator" would be lame.
+0 / -0
>The Pyro would then be an anti-building and anti-heavy focused raider.

One idea I think this version of the Pyro could use is a weapon that gains power the longer it fires. In Starcraft 2 there is a unit called Void Ray that has two power levels. At first the power is lower, then after a short period of time (7.2 seconds) it gains 33% more DPS. Since units in Starcraft cannot move and attack at the same time, if you want to move the Void Ray to avoid damage, you have to sacrifice the beam's charge and lose a lot of DPS.

Here's a game that was cast last night in which WhiteRa uses a ton of Void Rays.
Here's a link to the stats for the Weapon

So what if the new Pyro had a flame that does more damage as it fires? A visual indicator could be added as well, such as the flame growing larger and possibly changing color (Near the bottom of the page there is a picture showing the difference in beam intensity). Rather than only have a range of 100-130% damage like the Void Ray, I would give it a HUGE range, maybe from 10%-100%. That way, it can't kite and shoot stuff forever, but still keeps its role as anti-building and anti-heavy. It would also retain a large portion of micro-intensity since you would have to be constantly assessing when to run, when to stay, like the Slasher.
+0 / -0
6 years ago
Also, jumpfac has no real answer against riot spam. Moderator + Pyro is only somewhat effective against Warrior/Outlaw/whatever.
+0 / -0


6 years ago
quote:
Puppies are actually pretty good. They trade cost efficiently against almost all early game units.

Puppies are so good that, while being a raider, can easily pwn a warrior while making cost. And then eat the wreckage.

The only real solution to puppies in, say, cloaklab is just to tank it with zeus, which is really crazybad.

Persistent fireball trail on a jumping unit sounds rather useless though, unless fireballs fall to the ground, which would look bad. If it blazed across landscape instead though, that'd be neat. Though still too dgunny for a low-tier unit.

On making pyro anti-building and anti-heavy (though why would you need that in lab that has scuttle is beyond me): just give it a heatray!
+0 / -0

6 years ago
>The only real solution to puppies in, say, cloaklab is just to tank it with zeus, which is really crazybad.

lolticks
+0 / -0
6 years ago
lol when puppies are attaking... they cannot be emped
+0 / -0

6 years ago
Yeah, puppies fill a very odd and specific niche in ZK, it's no wonder that there are a handful of labs with a gap in their unit-spread that can't handle this unit.

Only thing in the cloakylab I've seen that seems to work okay is rushing into the pack with glaives. You'll lose the glaives, but you'll probably trick the puppies into wastefully overkilling the glaives. Even then, it's not a great strategy.
+0 / -0
quote:
but you'll probably trick the puppies into wastefully overkilling the glaives

Nope, puppies that miss become alive again, just a bit hurt. You can use that to jump with them. So first pup kills the glaive, the rest hit ground and devour the wreck.
+0 / -0


6 years ago
We might just be able to reduce Pyro's anti heavy power and leave the anti-heavy to Jack. This could be done by reducing multi-hit.
+0 / -0
6 years ago
If you nerf pyro (it charging up it's weapon is a good idea, for visuals use the ones for pyro and pyro2 in the mission editor), make jack a bit stronger to compensate. Give it a bit more HP or DPS or something like that.
+0 / -0
{redacted}
Jumplab's missing riots because it was created as a very specialized lab. It's even in the name! I think that's fine and doesn't need changing.

Jack is relatively weak, it's the most easy to counter unit and requires lots of micro to make cost. A low price means players can't really afford to micro it properly, except for low metal maps or early game rushes. Otherwise there's either gonna be too many of them, or other units to support it that require your attention. Maybe Jack needs its own UnitAI, a buff or a tiny role adjustment?
+0 / -0


6 years ago
quote:
requires lots of micro to make cost

Jump, click on commander. Cost made threefold.
+0 / -0

6 years ago
You already have to jump pyros to get the most out of them. Having a damage on the jump too is not going to be asking that much given the factory is already focused towards high micro.

The idea is that it burns the ground beneath it with its jets, yes.

Fleas and LLT's hardcounter puppies.

I suppose we do already have Jack for anti-building, and a lot of the current problem with the Pyro IS that it is so good vs buildings. So perhaps this split is not ideal. Still I do think the factory needs a more comprehensive lineup: People are right that Zeus basically destroys the whole factory up to sumo (My proposed riot unit wouldn't solve this issue though).
+0 / -0


6 years ago
quote:
Fleas and LLT's hardcounter puppies.

So do darts on plains and dirtboxes, i hear. But for the rest, it's rather grim :P
+0 / -0
6 years ago
thugs, the whole hv veh lab, brawlers, any shield, closed rk, crabbe, thugs, bouyo, mace/halberd, warrior, zeus, phenix...

plenty of things counter puppies, some do need some micro... but they work

1 well microed warrior can pwn 20-30 puppies
+0 / -0
Page of 4 (79 records)