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Let's make water maps fun

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11 months ago
I have noticed that water maps often have quite boring gameplay, and I have an idea to make them more exciting. I suggest adding another ship factory to introduce new strategic elements and enhance the overall experience of water maps. Here, I would like to suggest a design for this new ship factory.

The ships produced by this factory would be lighter and faster, with a unique ability called hydrofoils (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXIy12snokE). Hydrofoils can be activated, similar to a cloak, to increase the ship's speed by 2x. However, while in motion with hydrofoils activated, the ship would have 50% less armor. Therefore, hydrofoils would not be suitable for attack, but rather for quickly moving armies between the front lines in safe areas.

The proposed factory would produce the following types of units:

1. Scout: A small ship with no weapons that can transform into a stationary underwater sonobuoy. The sonobuoy would provide good vision range, sonar capabilities, and a short-range radar.

2. Heavy Rider: A torpedo ship with poor damage output in direct combat. However, it excels at laying invisible underwater mines (with a lifespan of 3 minutes and a countdown of 30 seconds). The primary use of this ship would be to place mines near metal spots to destroy enemy constructors and hinder early game expansion.

3. Mobile Bomb: A small submarine that acts as a kamikaze. It has special ability to travel a certain distance (600 elo) at the speed of a typical torpedo and explode upon reaching its destination, similar to the Snitch unit. The primary use of the Mobile Bomb would be to attack units that are unable to target underwater units and are left unprotected.

4. Riot: This ship functions similarly to the Outlaw unit, but instead of causing slow damage, it inflicts EMP damage. It serves as a counter to the mines (2), the Mobile Bomb (3), and can effectively deal with groups of enemy riders.

5. Artillery: A rocket ship that fires four powerful unguided rockets, initially angled a bit upwards and then directed towards a target area with some inaccuracy. Due to the low trajectory of the rockets, it is effective against groups of units on open water but usless against high ground positions or buried buildings on the ground. This ship can be countered by using walls.

6. Assault: A battleship armed with a gauss gun, serving as the main combat unit.

7. Anti-Air: A ship equipped with an AA-laser.


I believe that the inclusion of the Heavy Rider (2) and Mobile Bomb (3) would add excitement to the early and mid-game stages. Additionally, the army of Artillery (5), Assault (6), and Anti-Air (7) ships with the use of hydrofoils, would quickly transported to areas where the front line has been breached in the mid and late game.
+3 / -1
11 months ago
there's actually an unused kamikaze submarine unit already in the game, it can be spawned through cheats.

anyway

in my eyes, a water map is comparable to a flat map on land but with fewer viable factories than its land counterpart. while a new factory might help solve it, it would take a lot of dev work to add one. assets would need to be made for all the new units, like a whole bunch of new models and animations. then you'd need to implement and balance these units, it would shake up the meta a lot and it would take a lot of playtesting and tweaking to get the balance in a good spot. and then there's also the design work: you'd need to come up with some interesting units and mechanics for the new factory not to feel boring by just filling it with standard takes on established unit roles. i suppose you have some interesting ideas here, but they feel a little like recycled versions of existing land units... this isn't the worst thing in the world, the existing shipfac does something similar with its water recluse and water emissary and water harpy, but i also feel like shipfac isn't an exceptionally interesting fac and another water fac with a similar design approach might shake water up a little, but i feel like it would be hard to justify all the extra work for the effect it would have, and you'd need to find devs who have enough fate in the idea to put in all that extra work, and you need to think about it being greenlit by coredevs (particularly googlefrog i would imagine)

but i feel like there's a more fundamental issue with sea as it exists right now. that issue is the complicated relationship between the water surface and underwater units. the differences between who can hit whom and how the different units move and such feel a bit clunky at the moment, and it's additionally complicated by its interactions with air and, on occasion, land units. this chaotic web of interactions is something unholy and makes water and mixed maps quite the headache, and it would take more than just a new factory to untangle that mess
+3 / -0
11 months ago
It would be nice if water levels had more viable options than just the ship factory. It makes sense ships should be best at water, but the only closest competitor on full-water maps is hovercrafts, and they'll lose to boats every time if played properly. So it always ends up boats vs boats, and that goes against the "rock paper scissors" design of Zerok which is why it feels boring imo
+0 / -0
11 months ago
Still waiting for dynamic water and underwater terrain (first major things needed for sea to become better)
+1 / -0
11 months ago
That's a good idea! There should be a way to play and win with only things that walk on the bottom of the ocean. I think amphibots can kind of do this, but maybe their underwater capabilities could be buffed so they'd be a legit choice on water-only maps
+0 / -0
11 months ago
https://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/1783084

As an example, here is me at #23 on the ladder vs Godde #1 on the ladder, playing a water-only map. It just ends up being hunters vs hunters, it'd be cool if there was an amphibot factory solution that was competitive, where one could take over the ocean floor. Or if there was a cheap anti-ship airplane build... just something so that building hunter ships isn't always the best.
+0 / -0
I would expect that the natural transition from mass-Hunter is to add in some Corsairs. If that's not viable then it likely means Corsair needs a buff.

edit: on watching the replay I see you build Corsair (which I think ought to be correct) but also Mistral and a Seawolf (which against mono-Hunter is probably not correct, as Godde observed post-game).

Past experience suggests that buffing Amph to the point where it is strong in a 1v1 against Ships does not lead to good gameplay.
+1 / -0
11 months ago
Godde said to build a couple mistrals and then go to siren, and I agree. I'm not sure corsair is a useful unit because of the range and speed. But basically optimal boat builds seem to go hunter then siren, with maybe a mistral or two in between, and maybe one corsair but probably not.
+1 / -0
On one hand though, it does make sense that ships dominate the sea (entire design is for sea only) to balance the fact they can never leave the sea (or should not leave the sea)
+2 / -0
disclaimer: im going to have some opinions now.. please dont blindly agree or take them as facts..

i agree that ships should have there own key strengths and weaknesses but i also agree they have some very weak options that may need a buff.. Corsair + cutter are both rather owled not to mention reef.. a better choice is always shogun. reefs drain too much metal for there main weapon even if it was free it might not be enough to be competitive because mass reefs to overwhelm aa spam (reefs main goal disarm aa and attack aa) snowballs so slowly that by the time you kill a reefs worth of aa the enemy will have won sea by attrition advantage investing that metal in regular sea units.

Corsair if you make it too good it becomes the cheese factory killing rush.. but as 'it is it is' too weak to be any kind of effective and it gets you killed from attrition because getting the numbers needed to make cost vs siren is impossible. and they cant hold the enemy back while you gather them because they have no range. if it had its weakness buffed along with its strength - so was made cheaper faster and more dps but lower hit-points then maybe it could be used as an effective striker/raider but even then i doubt it as it is its only use seems to be speed dps raider.. and allot of sea maps have choke points and act more like rivers negating the speed. and other fast units like hunters absolutely smash them once you get enough.. infact everything seems to smash them past a point except cutters zephyr and mariners.

cutters ... these used to be great vs Claymore before claymore became a sea ogre and i guess they can distract lance.. now you almost never see them reflecting the fact that making them is no-longer wise.. they could possibly give los but there offensive value is negative due to the stun duration never justifying the metal cost delay in funding better units.

"I would expect that the natural transition from mass-Hunter is to add in some Corsairs" mass hunter will smash corsair into outer space
+0 / -0
11 months ago
I'm far from a competitive master but a part of me is very not surprised to hear Hunter spam is the sea meta because it's a functional cost effective answer to nearly every other type of unit ships are expected to match up against. Hunter beats Seawolves, Hunters beat hunters. Hunters beat nearly every amphbot. Hunters beat most hovers it feels like. At its worst it feels rather 'neutral' in most exchanges that you would expect it to hold any weight in.

Going into why, the first layer is pretty obvious: Torpedoes are awesome in the water. They don't really have problems firing past each other in mass because torpedoes do have some parallel to 'lob' or indirect fire, with the bonus of also being homing. Now take that skirmisher style massability, and put it on a unit with raider speed and damage, and you have a very potent unit. It's a bit on the frail side, but it does make a strong core.

I'm actually surprised to hear the Seawolf isn't more popular considering it's effectively about double the stats for double the price with the bonus of forcing your opponent into things like Hunters, which I'd figure Seawolves generally beat in a 'brawl', especially if you catch them before they can get the siren or two out that punishes a Seawolf pack with sheer aoe power.

The Corsair not performing well makes sense as it has a lot of overlap with the hunter at the expense of only hitting above water, and leaving yourself vulnerable to subs is just a recipe for disaster. Mistral always seemed like a niche unit that weighs in as a 'cheap early shore bombardier' for when you're not quite at Envoy stage. Neither the Envoy or Mistral seem to feel 'good' in dedicated ocean warfare though. The siren does a good job of being the 'go to big thing' as an assault, but easily overshadows Corsair in the Riot role if you're trying to make a screen for a back line, and even contributes to that back line/skirmisher position, while also still being a solid riot, and assault.

So kind of flipping through the Shipyard roster, it seems like it comes off as having 2 generalists that check a few too many boxes too efficiently, and then the rest of the roster just kinda, lacks effective identity and seems to only shine in a few niche cases. Corsair's are really chunky for their speed and deal lots of damage, but lack true aoe like a riot, and can't target the main things I'd want a water riot to be screening for of sneaky underwater snipes. Mistral sure, exists, but waiting until you can get an Envoy, or just stride out shoguns is likely what you're going to really want to look towards for long term siege. In the short term, Sirens can harass and, with focus fire, snipe priority targets every so often, while being fantastic front line bruisers.

Is this a problem? I don't know. Kind of yes, kind of no. Balance in Zero K is wonky as all get out, and super convoluted due to each factory interacting with other factories and different environments and map types. Shipyard units only exist on the water, and need to be balanced around this relatively featureless terrain type's limitations. Most maps, water is used as a form of natural barrier to be tested, taking up very little space overall but placed tactfully to create natural choke points in terms of movement, but making dynamic strategies in that not all factories are affected by that penalty the same way. Ships try to take this area that is generally considered disadvantageous, and thrive in it. Going ships on a mixed terrain map is a -statement-, and that statement should be rewarded in ruling that terrain. You then are sacrificing power when it comes to leaving it, especially compared to the other hydro factories.

How do you balance that on all water? That gets more difficult because most water terrain is flat. Adding islands gives some more wiggle room for the hybrid factories to flex their strengths; shallows, sand bars, and cliffy islands filling a similar niche as an inverse to a river, shallow, or lake would on a land map, but even the nuance of 'slightly hilly terrain' or 'high vs. low' terrain is lost on the water. One small idea my brain has toyed with is different types of water, something like 'rapids/currents', or 'deep sea' or 'stormy'. I'm not sure how that could be implemented exactly in Zero K, if it could be at all, but the lack of dynamics in water itself, cause water is water is water, when compared to land, which has highs, lows, smooth, hillty, jagged, etc. Is a substantial part of why the tool kit that could be brought to the water is so small scale.

The OC's original idea of making a 'Rover' equivelant to the Shipyards 'Tank' is a neat starting point though, even if it would be a large undertaking, it's not unfounded. Another idea that may loosely be considered is maybe a 'Shield' shipyard, or splitting the current shipyard to a more dedicated 'submarine yard' (as a cloackbot parallel) and 'flotilla' yard, but that's quick and loose conjecture and spitballing. I've definitely hit the ramble point in this so I'm just going to call it here.
+2 / -0


11 months ago
I doubt pure Hunter is the meta.
+1 / -0
hunters are fast and hard to dodge allowing them to kite and skirmish most units.. they are very strong imho Godde and most sea players know this well.. the tactic is to chip away at the enemy concentrating on killing a single or weak or exposed unit... and to raid using the speed. if they tried to take on a siren in close they would just get obliterated. but they can kill a siren using micro.. they are sort of like ducks in a way
+0 / -0

11 months ago
IMO the chief problem with water is that is is basically the same as land, but with things removed. Everything is small and weak like uninspired land units.

Where is the iron? If there should be a new water fac, it should be full of ponderous, thick-hulled, heavily-armed things that act like boats. The most cost-effective way to get hitpoints and firepower out there should be boats. When the enemy sails up to your coast in their boats it should be awful. At the same time, the boats should take forever to turn, to stop, to start, to do anything, so using them (and ambushing them) would have a lot to do with maneuver. That would be new and different, and not just like land units.

(Probably they need a measure of stun resistance to make up for the extra-high inertia.)

And for the love of all that is holy, don't let the big ones be lobbed or transported.
+0 / -0
11 months ago
quote:
I doubt pure Hunter is the meta.


Maybe not 'pure', but I do believe the Hunter checks too many boxes for it not to be the core backbone for far longer than what is assumedly the 'early game scout/raider' is intended. That being said, I don't what is the 'intended', but I don't see it having any real competition as the go to fighting ship until Siren. Corsair is just the wrong choice because your inviting in an obvious and common weakness for minimal gains. The Seawolf I find fights on a comparable level, and enjoys that submerged safety, but when that submerged factor doesn't play in, like say, Hunters, then the Hunter performs better.

So I see a loose breakdown of:

Open Hunters.

Enemy now has to counter hunters. How do you counter hunters?

Well, Riots beat Raiders right? except, Corsair isn't really a riot... it's closer to a raider. It gets out raidered by hunters, and isn't enough of a Riot to challenge them without the packs nimbly picking them apart.

Seawolf is something Hunters I'm pretty sure are -intended- to fairly hard counter, considering they have more range, sonar, etc.

Mistrals are skirms and skirms loose to raiders without screens, and your best screen against Hunters is going to be... your own hunters.

So go Hunters to counter Hunters.

Even at a casual/intro level, on water heavy maps, I do find that the Hunter and Seawolf into Siren and Envoy/cross factory is what my 'effective' shipyard strategies boil into. Hunter, if I ID a sub weakness (AKA: the enemy stops building hunters), add subs, if I ID air weakness, throw in some planes. Pushing the enemy towards one usually exposes them to the other, unless it's like, hunters under an Arte, then it starts taking some Siren weight to wade in, cause corsair isn't cutting it.

Lots of factors go into this of course, though one sticking point I find is any 'riot' that's shotgun based underperforms as a proper riot in terms of countering raiders. Shotgun riots seem to punch 'up' or 'across' better than 'down', when riots are meant to be the 'punch down' role. On top of this, it lacks underwater capabilities, and the point where one would be considering transitioning out of the basic raider stage is the exact point where the underwater units come full swing and you want checks for them.

Worried about amphbots like ducks and scallops? Hunter, just be sure to run before the shotguns start shredding. Otherwise you don't have an answer until Sirens.

How about non-amphbots? Well we've already covered that Hunter performs well against other ship types, being able to efficiently skirmish Corsairs with their similar range and burst damage but greater speed. So how about hovers? Well, Daggers are a meme, but Scalpels are something the Corsair would perform well against as they'd catch them well and be able to shred with their shotguns... and Mace's kinda destroy everything they can get their hands on in my experience, and do outrange Corsairs. Fairly pricy comparison to make. The problem then though is that, well, all of these apply equally well to the hunter, if not better. You could throw 3 corsairs at a Mace and only lose one, but you could also throw 7 hunters for cheaper, and still only lose one. (maybe two, because projectile travel time and based on if the mace is running in and out, etc.)

So yeah... playing heavy water map? Make hunters. They kinda, check everything. Could definitely see how that's what the meta has leaned into and why high end water map play feels a bit stale for it.
+1 / -0


11 months ago
Idk, sounds like a lot of theorising. I would want to see replays. Nothing has indicated to me that Hunter goes the distance in actual games.

That said, a Corsair buff seems pretty reasonable regardless.
+0 / -0
11 months ago
dont forget cutters? they are so bad what do they do? scout to see if enemy has hover i guess
+1 / -0