Now that leveler is getting a buff and tanks are getting their anti-scorcher means back, perhaps it's a good time to discuss amphibs. Amphib lab in general feels out of balance, with a few really good units and a few really crappy ones. Now I don't play water maps almost at all, so I can't really comment much on it's ability there underwater, but boy does scallop suck on dry land. It's easily the worst riot in the game(a lot worse than outlaw imo, because outlaw has amazing synergy with fac's other units). As it has amphibious capabilities, a slight disadvantage on land is expected. But this level of uselessness seems too much. It's weak vs raiders - glaives and scorchers make cost against it. It also loses horribly when having to fight anything else - be it other riots, assaults, etc. It's also very slow. Movement speed comparison Venom - 2.7 Banisher - 2.3 Mace - 2.2 Leveler - 2.0 now/2.2 in next stable Warrior - 1.71 Outlaw - 1.5 Scallop - 1.4 I think such lack of speed would be ok if it could kill stuff for cost. Variety is cool and every lab doesn't have to be the same, especially considering slow movement speed seems to be a factory trait for amphibs. As for what to buff, the unit seems simply overpriced. It doesn't make cost. The weapon is cool and unique so I don't think any kind of redesign is necessary. Maybe reduce it's cost from 350 to 300 and see what happens? Or any other ideas?
+4 / -0
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+1, right now land amph is just buoy spam + some grizzly (archers for trolling) (duck is useless past the first 3 mins)
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Part of the problem is the nature of the shotty - even though it seems like it would be a riot weapon, if you think about it the weapon is anti-heavy. Most of the flechettes of its spray miss against targets with a small cross-sectional area like a Glaive. The only time it deals its full damage is if you hit a large target.
+3 / -0
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Scallops are particularly murderous to large targets - like, say, commanders.
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I think amph balance should be ignored until the rest of sea is fixed, as having a balanced amph fac still leaves the rest of sea in it's current state.
+3 / -0
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quote:
Now that leveler is getting a buff and tanks are getting their anti-scorcher means back |
I am not even sure if these will happen in the near future.
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ive used scallops mostly as asults, esp if you have a cloaker for them... 1 scalop can kill commander junior on its own :P
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I think a lot of people underestimate amphib lab tbh, archers dominate glaives and bandits hard in my experience and ducks are getting a buff next patch, currently they put mexes on 0% and scorchers on 5% which is a ridiculous value so saktoth said he will add +10 damage then they should be able to 1 shot scorchers See http://www.twitch.tv/mightysheep/c/3558431 or http://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/227832 for example of me making archers work, I also tried them on cooper vs randy quite successfully, following it up with buoy/grizzly for win (which I also did vs randy on Drab not long ago) From my perspective, the main problem is archers hardly do any damage to buildings and are almost incapable of killing shield bots (they dont damage shield fast enough and push con/thug away so you cant go inside shield). To be honest, archers fail at everything except crapping on light units (they cant snipe com for shit). Duck always had the problem of stupid damage value but now that its going to be fixed they should also be viable -> meaning there is solid early game and late game choices available ! They have good anti air and clams are a good con (as far as cons go), I completely agree however that scallop is a bit of a derp unit. In my opinion it should just be removed and replaced with something better, having a shotgun on a little box looks so wrong. Edit: maybe something more like 'The Can' from BA/TA would be suitable :p (green pewpew)
+1 / -0
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   [Fx]DroneIsn't the Grizzly effectively a humongous Can (ie: the OTA Sumo)? But yeah, you do point out the obvious: the lab has a riot in the Archer.
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Liberal Neon mode engaged. Scallop shoots torpedos and has 4 guns that are not for shooting torpedos. Rather than shoot shotguns from those other tubes, it should use all 5 tubes to launch a salvo of missiles or torpedos (depending on medium) in Starcraft Valkyrie mode - a semi-homing, wobbling thing that spreads the AoE from a single salvo to create greater, bigger AoE. Bonus point: doing this in engines newer than 91 can allow for nice patterns of fire to be laid down on poor enemies. I know that missiles are supposedly overused in ZK. But well-orchestrated macross missile massacres aren't, and there aren't any salvo-firing missile riots (in fact, there's just one salvo-firing riot out there at all). Aside from the missile massacre awesomeness, this will achieve the following: - weapon no longer antiheavy. - weapon much better at murdering the masses - weapon also rioty underwater. - underwater combat less boring.
+5 / -0
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So like a short-ranged small-scale Catapult salvo? I like that. Only problem is underwater - the only thing Amphibs need to riot underwater is other Amphibs, so it means the best counter to Amphibs is Amphibs. Ships don't have a low-weight sub. Since we're neoning, here's another one: 1) Tweak the Scallop into a skirm. Y'know, gut its ROF, buff its speed and range, nerf its health. 2) Move the Outlaw to the Amphib lab, renamed Buoy. Move the Buoy to the Shieldbot lab, re-vamp it into a conventional riot, renamed Outlaw (Flamethrower, maybe?). Boom, now shield-crawls are no longer immune to cloaked foes, the Amphibs now have an anti-heavy skirmisher, you can have OutlawBuoy/Scallop crawls to scale up to a Grizzly, etc. Now, a problem is the shotgun-skirm would be weird for like nineteen different reasons... I'm not sure if that's good weird or bad weird.
+0 / -0
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1) rename the unit. its too similar to scalpel. really. 2) unconfuse beginners 3) unconfuse mojjj 4) unconfuse everyone else 5) ...? 6) profit
+2 / -0
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dont fuck whit buoy, its good unit
+3 / -0
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quote:
Part of the problem is the nature of the shotty - even though it seems like it would be a riot weapon, if you think about it the weapon is anti-heavy. Most of the flechettes of its spray miss against targets with a small cross-sectional area like a Glaive. The only time it deals its full damage is if you hit a large target. |
I can see your point, however I wouldn't go as far as calling it anti-heavy. It can still hit a bunch of units in one hit. Most antiheavy units like the current panther or goliath are strictly single target. Panther hits one glaive, reloads for 3 seconds and only then it can hit that glaive again to finish it off. Shotgun can still hit 5 glaives in one hit, although it usually doesn't do that. If anything, the shotgun is a generalist weapon, one that can damage both swarms and single targets alike. The question is, is that even a problem? Amphs have a lot of weird units and maybe they don't need a conventional riot. Archers already kind of take the role of a quasi-riot, so the scallop having an unconventional weapon seems interesting. But right now it doesn't really make cost against anything, doesn't matter if it's fighting a swarm or a single target. quote:
In my opinion it should just be removed and replaced with something better, having a shotgun on a little box looks so wrong. |
Are there currently any available unused models to replace the scallop? quote:
I am not even sure if these will happen in the near future. |
:S Tanks vs vehicles has so much potential as a matchup, but it's completely broken atm.
+0 / -0
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buoy is OK, but still fails utterly vs rocko, rogue, recluse and light veh. gets turned to paste in two shots by reaper too. I think it would still be fine with more HPs because the slow, arcing projectile and lack of AoE makes it super hit and miss. /tangent I think amphs generally need a whole release to themselves, much like jumpers got. so do spiders.
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The main problem with buoy is that a single roach can blow a 2k metal pack EDIT: just found out I was wrong, you need 2 roaches
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roach counters whole amph fac, yeah. no cheap raider = gg
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Valkyrie missile scallop could probably kill roaches reasonably well, as a proper riot should.
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You'd still need something to sweep the roaches with. Ducks at 150 metal can do it, but not effectively.
+1 / -0
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Ah, right, the roach mines. Massive linear aoe could work? Defusing by fire?
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