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Title: [A] Teams all welcome
Host: EErankNorthChileanG
Game version: Zero-K
Engine version: 104.0.1-1435-g79d77ca
Started: 2 months ago
Duration: 10 minutes
Players: 22
Bots: False
Mission: False
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in this replay you can see esainane using some kind of auto expander, clearly the units arent microd, his pointer is nowhere near them. they also expand in a very scripty way.
no its no gbc its either ecohelper, or some other script/ai assist. (AVATAR EcoMan? i bet thats it)
there are way more of these, for all kind and purposes, its dum and has to be regulated.

i dont like being that guy, because i think scripting is kinda hilarious and the people doing it are for sure having lots of fun.
but ill be that guy and call out the crappy state of things when it comes to custom widgets.

even after i tryed to get into widgeting its clear that all the dirty stuff is hidden never mentioned and noone is gonna share with the rest of the players. atleast i can say for myself ive tryed make everything i came across available to everyone, the rest of the widgeters have been quite the opposite.
so to those this might affect, i guess you should have been deving for the game itself instead of underground dirt that the general player wont be able to fight since he even isnt aware of.

way out/ proposal:
make a advanced section in the widget menu, alike to the simple settings/advanced settings of the options menu.
here are all widgets that arent to game standards or that will break the game in player performance aspect.
custom widgets are disabled, players have to apply their script to be added to this section, none autohost and none matchamaking hosts can enable this section in the advanced options.

thank you
preace out
yours truly
the dream catcher
+1 / -3

2 months ago
If you thought it is so funny and you're having fun, you wouldn't be actively trying to ruin that experience for everyone else.
+1 / -1
2 months ago
sorry not sorry.
i trully enjoy using unfair advantages to defeat my oppoents, it is funny.
im not ruinning it for "everyone else", that everyone else is very far from everyone else.
+0 / -1
no its no gbc

It is GBC, I just tend to turn off GBC later on since it has a habit of making builders cluster up once the game goes late.

To replicate:

- Select any GBC enabled constructor.
- Press W for area mex.
- Hold down Alt before releasing, to add solars to the area mex command.
- Optionally, delete excess solars from the queue using Alt-S, since you tend not to need more than one.

This gets you "good enough" expansion during the early game, freeing up attention for you to micro your raiders. You might want to micro a constructor or two to get them to properly spread out, since they can sometimes cluster up early. Still, once you get them spread out once, they usually stay spread out until jobs are done, and you usually want to disable GBC before then anyway.

No special widgetry required, in this case.
+2 / -1
2 months ago
thats a fat stinky bullshit, at no point are the units behaving like they would under gbc, they dont bunch up as gbc is known to do,
at a moment u can see the opposite, units divide onto separate jobs while being nearby, gbc wouldnt divide the units, it builds the thing with all nearby builders.

eitherway this is not the point of the thread, just shows what kind of behaviour you get from people that use these scripts, fat stinky bs

+0 / -1
2 months ago
Soo... custom scripts that expand for the player now eh?
What's next? having an ai play for you while just watching to ensure perfection?

Widgets should be used to solve inconveniences, not introduce new dimensions to gameplay and allow for extra help. That gives people with widgets an advantage over others who don't use them. Things like auto expanders save soo much time for players that they can focus on microing their raiders early on and get a huge advantage over others. That seems a bit game-breaking, being able to completely out micro someone in combat because you have a personal ai doing your eco. Other such widgets like the llt or unit one that makes them sweep areas to detect cloakers are also quite game-breaking, as that is something a normal player wouldn't be able to do or would need to spend a lot of time doing it thus giving the person with widgets an advantage that they should not have.

Some widgets are helpful and lead to new game development, but others provide unfair advantages to certain players. From what I have seen, there are no guidelines or body governing what is and what is not acceptable. that can lead to a lot of harm in the future...

I would advise that the developers make up a little committee or panel and decide what is and what is not acceptable and make the widgets they deem acceptable part of the base game. People should have free and easy access to tools that provide advantages such as those offered by widgets.
+1 / -1
2 months ago
Tarkin dear that is already upon us,
Ai with godmode has been going around for a while
+0 / -0
2 months ago
@Omoiyari, GBC constructors won't bunch up as long as they still have nearby jobs to do, since they prefer nearby jobs when available.

If you're interested, you can follow the logic yourself in FindCheapestJob ( https://github.com/ZeroK-RTS/Zero-K/blob/master/LuaUI/Widgets/unit_global_build_command.lua#L1475 ), and either IntelliCost ( https://github.com/ZeroK-RTS/Zero-K/blob/master/LuaUI/Widgets/unit_global_build_command.lua#L1557 ) or FlatCost ( https://github.com/ZeroK-RTS/Zero-K/blob/master/LuaUI/Widgets/unit_global_build_command.lua#L1666 ), depending on which cost model GBC is told to use.

It's not perfect, but as long as they go in different directions initially, it's good enough for the early game.

There probably are still some private widgets out there (puppy rush was an infamous case until it was made public), but getting mad at one that is available to everyone - this time, without any downloading or searching through github/springfiles required! - is a missing the mark a little, I think.
+0 / -0
2 months ago

[10:38] esainane: Omoiyari like I said, it is GBC. Hold down Alt while doing an area mex and you'll get solars in exactly the same positions, though I delete excess solars from the queue since you tend not to need more than one
[10:39] esainane: Have you used GBC before?
[10:54] Omoiyari: u lie like a 3 year old
[10:54] Omoiyari: ai not very effectively
[10:57] esainane: It's literally GBC


Fine. Lets go over the replay with a fine tooth comb.

With a mix of watching what's happening with my selection and cursor, and vague recollections of what I was doing:

  • 00:00-00:21: Commander goes through initial (pre-game) queue, nothing special required
  • 00:21-00:28: Commander, Quill, and Factory (oops) sit idle for a bit while I look over the new map, working out where I want to go (this is my first time seeing the map, and it's distractingly pretty)
  • 00:30: I direct order the Commander to moves forward a bit and area mex near the Quill. The commander isn't currently told to build anything in particular yet, nor are there any jobs outside of the immediate "I should really not be idling" job for the Quill, as I'm still working out where to go.
  • 00:37: Huge area mex command issued with Commander selected. You can watch my cursor move to get an idea of the size of huge circle I'm drawing in the middle of the map. Shift held, so GBC intercepts this and stores it as jobs to perform later.
  • 01:09: You can see the Commander and the Quill move out, taking the queued up mexes and taking some solars in the familiar Alt-W pattern, less excess solars.
  • 01:23: GBC performs its first trademark constructor bunchup, with the commander wandering north to build a solar next to the quill about to finish building a mex. Once the Quill finishes building the mex, GBC decides to reassign jobs (you can follow the source for the exact logic, but I have the IntelliCost model enabled, I think it tries to avoid too many workers on small jobs if they're not right there). Commander walks towards the eastern mex, which was part of the area mex command, rather than the closer mex slightly to the south, because that wasn't yet part of any area mex command.
  • 01:34: I notice the commander moving east towards a suboptimal mex, and issue another area mex command to add the southern mexes to GBC job pool. The commander is still closer to the southern mex than to the eastern mex, so it immediately switches to the newly created job for the southern mex.
  • 02:17: Commander moves out towards an even more distant eastern mex, rather than the nearby east by south-east mex, since the latter wasn't part of any area mex command yet.
  • 02:29: We're getting a bit close to some unidentified radar dots now, so I select my commander and have it immediately drop down an LLT. While GBC is aware of it, and so the quill comes down to help out at 02:33, this was a direct order. I area mex the aforementioned missed mex while I'm at it, but some part of the magic IntelliCost algorithm heavily prioritises light defence, so the Quill assists the LLT first anyway.
  • 02:54: GBC begins it's usual clustered-constructor derpydance. One constructor blocks the solar while building the mex, the other tryies to build the solar and gets the first constructor to move, then the solar-building constructor decides (as it's now idle) it should be building the higher priority mex instead of the solar. They swap back and forth repeatedly, but I'm busy microing the Mace so don't intervene. Such is the upsides and downsides of using GBC, but I think "good enough" expansion while microing the initial army is still worth it in the early game. This eventually un-screws itself at 03:03. This is probably one of the clearest cut examples of GBC derpiness you can ever get with two constructors.
  • 03:54: I'm done poking around with the mace, and manually drop down a Picket in the middle, since there were a lot of swifts floating around. I manually have the Quill repair the Mace about 04:00, too, and add in a solar by a mex without one back at base (this one not part of the four-solar-clover pattern you get from area mexing and cleaning up)

I think this is about the point where I considered initial expansion to be done, though I'm not sure. I did turn it back on I think not long after, though at this point I believe there's enough evidence.

There should be enough human idleness to see that this requires commands to be given, rather than a fully automatic AI a la "EcoHelper".

There should also be enough GBC quirkiness that anyone familiar with GBC should be able to tell that it's GBC. Perhaps when you tried using GBC, you were using the FlatCost model, which is even worse for bunching?

While I understand your frustration with what may well be a very real issue, in this particular case, your accusations are completely unwarranted. I have now spent the past half hour pausing and unpausing the first few minutes of this replay at half speed, and typing everything up, just for you.

@Omoiyari, I would like an apology.
+3 / -0
2 months ago
the area mex dont show up when specing
sorry esainane
+1 / -0
2 months ago
the issue still stands in my view.
along with the smurfing and the kicking out of every host that isnt known players
these are the main players experience issues.
one for each level of player

odd one out
+0 / -0