Detri still feels a bit meh

Buffing it's speed from just 36 elmo/s to high 40s or straight 50 elmo/s could work to make it a proper menace in fights.

Game ending superunit... for the team that builds it!

I feel like Detriment needs some kind of change but I'm not sure what it is yet.

In teams games which reach the point of building super-units, Paladin and the static superweapons are preferred. I assume that Detriment is considerably more popular, relative to the other superweapons, in FFA than it is in teams.

The advantages of Detriment which apply to FFA but don't matter as much for teams are (a) the fact that it can be concealed and (b) it is far better at wiping an enemy out quickly compared to Paladin.

I agree with that point, a lot of times detriment is out is when it's set on attack move or just normal move into enemy to be used as a nuke worth 24k metal in the best case scenario.
It lacks the range of other super weapons at that price cost but it can move and cloak as well as move around pretty fast with aid of a hercules or djinns.
Any buffs/nerfs would have to account that if it's too good then people will just skip making 2-3 paladins and go straight for detriments, if it's too bad then only paladins or other super weapons will be going out.

I'd go with just movement speed buff again at at least paladin equal movement speed so it can't get kited around since it's job is to break other heavy units. I would like to see the effect of a 50 elmo/s speed detriment, even if it needs a price bump to 25k or 26k.

How about giveing the gaus more range?

My problem with speed is that the Paladin a "lighter unit" should stay faster than Detriment.

I dislike the autoregen because i like feature of supers needding power -> Big stuff needs the backbone to provide for it. If a team cant power the super, they dont deserve it, if they cant repair the detri, " .

About the jump: Why is there a cooldown when it still takes ages from recieveing the order till the actual jump?

Speed: Keeping the speed low makes the Detri take longer to push back the enemy frontline, just jumping in could lead to landing near counter units without any allies nearby and the jump to safety beeing on cooldown. That way the other team has longer to get a counter and it takes the wind out of the "gameender" sail.

Small fry: A Unit such as Detri beeing blocked by small fry which he should be able to just walk over is ridiculous. How about a very low range high dmg outlaw gun strapped to his feet, range low enough that circleing glaives/gnats are unaffected but what he "directly steps ontop" suffers.



tldr: How about more range, more hp, less/no autoregen, faster Jump, keeping speed or even reduceing it, ability to crush small fry with his feet?

Thanks for the comments :D

quote: Majo: Buffing it's speed from just 36 elmo/s to high 40s or straight 50 elmo/s could work to make it a proper menace in fights.

I am thinking like 20-30% movement speed, the point of paladin being faster is a bit mute since paladin is more of an arty / support role.

quote: Silent_AI It's very strong in FFA, not sure it can be buffed.

I really don't think we should be basing majority game balance on something as wonky as FFA, but the things that need tweaked likely won't really change anything for FFA.

quote: Aquanim In teams games which reach the point of building super-units, Paladin and the static superweapons are preferred. I assume that Detriment is considerably more popular, relative to the other superweapons, in FFA than it is in teams. The advantages of Detriment which apply to FFA but don't matter as much for teams are (a) the fact that it can be concealed and (b) it is far better at wiping an enemy out quickly compared to Paladin.

My guess would be in FFA there tends to be fewer larger units and defenses than in team games because the resources are not spread out across the team. So its more common to build larger things which are a more efficient use of metal. Detri struggles against lots of units, but does really well against a few big expensive things.

quote: Astran I think Detri is pretty strong. The reason it feels meh is because at the price it is very tempting to go straight to even stronger options like Zenith or DRP.

Maybe if it was better people would rush static superweapons less.
Games where superweapons get made in teams tend to get very frustrating with several people (usual high rank) having to devote all their metal income to stunning the super. Most of the time the team that made super first win as they can easily snipe the enemy super. Doesn't matter how early you scout the superweapon, you always get half the team somehow unaware that it was being built.

quote: Majo Any buffs/nerfs would have to account that if it's too good then people will just skip making 2-3 paladins and go straight for detriments, if it's too bad then only paladins or other super weapons will be going out.

Well it does cost the same as 2-3 paladins, so logically you should be building it if that's what you are going to do. Consequently it should be more powerful than 2-3 paladins to account for the extra build time.

quote: Snowlob Small fry: A Unit such as Detri beeing blocked by small fry which he should be able to just walk over is ridiculous. How about a very low range high dmg outlaw gun strapped to his feet, range low enough that circleing glaives/gnats are unaffected but what he "directly steps ontop" suffers.

I tried something like this when looking at detri before, it works, but should it also affect ally units? If it doesn't kill ally then it looks weird and inconsistent, if it does kill ally then your team will hate you!


Jump either needs significantly more range, 50-100%. Or the cooldown needs to be much shorter (and the time before the jump could be reduced a bit).

For the dgun it feels like it needs some way to attack at longer range / over a larger area, I was thinking maybe a high arc setting for it where the dgun shots are fired up and spread over a much larger area.


As with all big units, it feels like they can't push or be very aggressive because there are so many super effective counters to them. Static superweapons get to enjoy being virtually impossible to reach, but can attack anywhere on the map in short order.


Basically I am saying that more detri = more fun. They are a tangible thing you can kill unlike a super buried at the back of the enemy base surrounded by defences and funnelwebs.


I will play around with a few tweaks and see what people think.

quote: Detri is mostly bad in team games because less skilled players use it, who can't coordinate an attack, don't know what its weaknesses are and don't know when and how to retreat.

No doubt all those things are true of less-skilled players, but I think the important point is that more-skilled players don't build detriments. (As far as I have seen anyway.)

TechAUmNu
Pala as Arty: doesnt seem well thought through to me, 10k metal for 2 lances worth of firepower and questionabley reliable D-Gun? Where does it leave Merlin?

Affect Allied Units: Im against it, thats why i proposed something akin to a Outlaw weapon which would also be affected by the hold fire button.
The matter of affecting allied units is for my reception the same ethnical debate as the one about autonomous killer machines in RL.
You as Player are now longer in control of the Unit if it can kill without your instruction/permission.
The instance that directly controls the detri would have to consider each step, same as some units(eg Stardust) already refuse to fire when a ally in the way/the target. Im against letting the cobblestones carry that ethnical decision with each movement order and would go the simple path by disableing ally damage, same as the Outlaw weapon.

Jump: Any ideas about the scenario that detri will only move by jumping? Might as well be a stronger Shogun and 2 Lobsters?

Cant push agressively: Its because the metal cost and the stats dont match up! Players always expect to be able to counter a unit with only a fraction of the cost and consider it op if they cant they gotta wake up from that illusion. What fairness is it to the one building the unit?

Supers: They spent at least 30k (+2 Singus) on it and the thoughts are thats its possible to get away with less commitment (undefined shape or form(skill/metal))? Aint that a bit ... perhaps "arogant"/"egoistical" ? The 1.200 metal silo and the 600 metal shockley are already a... for the one building the super.

Detri + less skilled players: Astran dyth68
I would go deepr and not see the problem in the fact that mostly less skilled players are makeing it, to me its a sympthom.
I see the problem in: WHY does it seem like "less skilled players are makeing detri"? Why are NOT more skilled players also makeing it?
Aint the reason why new players are suicideing it and the reason why new players make it while experienced ones dont/less one and the same? Aint the lacking cooperation while building it a result of the lacking belief/often suicide of/in it? To me the temptation to directly go for a super instead of detr is just another result of that same chain,

Why aint YOU makeing more detris?

Give it an HP buff to 100k HP?