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Jumping vs All-terrain - which is better?

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Jumping vs All-terrain - which is better?

Simple question - which ability is more useful and worth more metal?

A lot of people wax hysterical about the boundless power that all-terrain raiders or artillery would have. I considered the map pool and concluded that to all extents and purposes bar a few niche maps like Charlie in the Hills jumpers ARE all terrain. Pyros are all terrain raiders. Jacks are all terrain assaults.

Jumpers:

Can jump into water, cool down, jump out of water to bypass water. Spiders cannot.

Can jump to evade projectiles, bombers etc.

Can jump to immediately bypass a steep slope for fast movement.

Can jump up to a high point very quickly, and then from there after cooldown jump to a higher point even without pathing.

Can jump to bypass trenches as in Trojan Hills, Bandit Plains.

Can jump in combat to gain los of target and concentrate fire.

Can jump to attack high up defences without exposing themselves to much fire.

Spiders

Can traverse all terrain, albeit at increasingly low horizontal speed as the slope gets steep.

Can skirmish up and down the lip of cliffs.

Require less micro to transition over bad terrain.

Cannot cross moats containing water.

Cannot effectively attack up a cliff - slow movement, slow range or in the case of the hermit, no range due to ballistics.

little to no combat benefit in most cases.

So..

Jumping is outright better, in my opinion. A pyro that was all terrain instead of jump would be much worse. A venom that could jump would be uber.

Why then, do people get so stressed about the idea of all terrain spiders being all powerful and raiding the back of bases? On what maps would that take place, besides Charlie and maybe Real? Doesn't Jack do any such feared role better already?
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Skasi
Umm can jumpies really jump into water? I thought impassable terrain was blocked.

And from what I know spiders can not traverse all terrain. Allterrain maxslope is 70, so a slope above 70° will not be pathable. Iirc FoogleGrog or some other dev once said that this was to give mappers a chance to create spider-impathable terrain.

Beside that you forgot two other strengths of all-terrain:
Cloaked spiders on cliffs are extreeeemely hard to spot. Uncloaked spiders on cliffs can be very hard to engage from high ground. Example for both strenghts: Ticks, Spies or Fleas on Ravaged. Just have to somehow deal with the awful pathing on cliffs.
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quote:
Can jump into water, cool down, jump out of water to bypass water. Spiders cannot.

This was somewhat unintended. It breaks some otherwise impassable boundaries some maps were designed with (eg. Isle of Grief) but the argument for not fixing was that it's not problematic (which does hold true for 99% of maps).

Skasi as far as I can tell the actual angle is that value * 1.5 which would mean Spiders can move everywhere. The impassable terrain used to be cliff+water but jump can now take care of this.
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9 years ago
quote:
Can jump into water, cool down, jump out of water to bypass water. Spiders cannot.

Not a fan of this breaking the few boundaries ZK still has.
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9 years ago
primary moral here btw is that spiders are kinda bad and we need an eight legged OP spider release
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9 years ago
https://springrts.com/wiki/Movedefs.lua#How_slope_is_determined

Also, without getting into too much blabla, imo there are no good maps for Jumpers & Climbers. Almost every point of interest is usually reachable/controllable by Walkers or even Rollers. The different movement does not give that big advantage.
Imo this needs partly to be solved by the maps.

http://zero-k.info/Maps/Detail/36041 - thin rivers divide the map, crossing them is required to expand. Jumpers can jump over them.
http://zero-k.info/Maps/Detail/42183 - terrain structures that only Climbers can get on top of, to get tactical advantage.
http://zero-k.info/Maps/Detail/7202 - but imagine more of those zig-zag cliffs.
Not so good examples, unsure if good ones exist...but something in that direction.
Instead of tweaking or adding new units ("spiders need riot!", and then: "spiders need raider!") Jumpers & Climbers need environmental change.
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9 years ago
Wait, jumpers are allowed to jump into water now?
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Yes, and it seems ok.

The vast majority of maps does not feature the cliff+water impassable boundary and even less are designed with explicitly that in mind, and it is only those rare cases that somewhat suffer from this.
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USrank[GBC]1v0ry_k1ng: Your argument is not sound. Jump is in some sense more powerful than all-terrain, but jump is given to far fewer units for exactly this reason, with the goal of making jump vs. spider balanced on at least some maps.

There are maps on which jump is effectively the same as all-terrain, that is true (e.g. something like Quicksilver). However, you under-estimate the number of maps on which spider movetype is superior. Playing jump vs. spider on something like Badlands or FrozenPlanetV3 is asking to lose. Unless the map is flat enough that you can reasonably deploy Moderators and Firewalkers the factory matchup is really bad in my experience (on the verge of unwinnable).

[b]I also note that jumpfac artillery and skirm can't jump... because jumping artillery onto inaccessible terrain would be overpowered.[/b] Again.

I'm not certain a raider spider is inherently a bad idea but if it's in combination with Venom it probably is.

quote:
Doesn't Jack do any such feared role better already?

No. Not even close. It's not a raider, it doesn't move fast. Pyro is an all-terrain raider and it's seriously fearsome - the factory has no real riot, a shitty skirmisher and a melee assault to compensate for how good Pyro is.

quote:
DErank[2up]knorke Also, without getting into too much blabla, imo there are no good maps for Jumpers & Climbers. Almost every point of interest is usually reachable/controllable by Walkers or even Rollers. The different movement does not give that big advantage.

...Okay, you're just wrong.
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9 years ago
I think Moderator not having jump is mostly a legacy thing. It'd surely be possible to tweak other stats to keep a jumping Moderator reasonable if such thing were to happen.
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9 years ago
Okay that's possibly true. A jumping Firewalker sounds disgusting though.
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9 years ago
The main difference is that jumps can use an ability to give then pseudo AT temporarily, and this ability can be used for other things (speed boost, hitting air, dodging alpha, giving effective resistance to raider fire, applying DoT then leaving). Jump also treats all terrain relatively the same, while AT pays a speed penalty for slopes.

In exchange for this AT is not temporary. The implication being you don't need godly apm, but also that there is no point of weakness. A pyro who traverses a cliff in order to raid around the back is in deep shit if the opponent saw it coming or predicted it. You're risking 220 metal and hoping the opponent has made mistakes. AT can poke their head up and safely/consistently return (or only lose 20 metal). Firing while on a cliff face is also sorta badass, the angle makes opposing rockos useless, and most unit unable to hit. AT can "cockroach" on hills and cliffs in a way that jumpies cannot, because they can consistently fire while doing so. You are also able to take your entire army with you on every incursion, which is big.

Maps where all terrain units are to be feared include Isle of Grief, Ravaged, Desert Needle, and surprisingly CCR.

It's also worth noting that there is no (afaik) rule that says one mode of movement can't be better than another. All-terrain is literally better than wheels in every way if you don't take into account individual unit attributes. I'd be more concerned about the factory balance itself. Spiders are behind JJ in 1v1, but they're pretty damn common/powerful in teams. Spiders also seem to counter JJ with the exception of Firewalker, which has difficulty on hilly maps.

DErank[2up]knorke
Strongly disagree. JJ at least is a very strong contender anywhere bots are viable. I'd go so far as to say JJ are better than the other bot facs even (if only I were better with them T-T). I suspect any under-performance is more the result of a different playstyle requirement to glaive/bandit/duck spam.
Spiders are a bit weak on most maps, but that's probably more because they inhabit a very specific niche, and maps that fall within that niche are unpopular because they disallow most other facs. Put enough sheer cliffs in and spiders are the only option.
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9 years ago
quote:
Wait, jumpers are allowed to jump into water now?


wait what? so skuttling ships work now? i was told this is not the case.
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9 years ago
Skuttle jumps to sea bottom.
Yesterday I have seen comm buried in a -250 deep hole, getting skuttled easily.
No idea how well it would work vs floating units though.
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Should jumpers be made amphibious now, for the sake of consistency?

Kinda silly that they can jump to water and move around there, but not enter by walking.
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9 years ago
just guesing but i dont think moving is allowed. i assume they are stuck till next jump.
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Edit: Nvm, my idea is stupid.
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DErankAdminmojjj: I recall seeing a skuttle move. Also AUrankAdminGoogleFrog commented in github:
quote:
The units I have seen are slow and can't fire. So it seems ok to me.


Can't make it sure myself yet though...
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9 years ago
Prohibiting jump to and from water of above certain depth as a special case should be easy.
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Skasi
Well, jumping into water should be allowed (if just for Skuttle). However, since movement underwater is not possible for non-amphibs/subs the same rule should apply to jump units that are not amphib.
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