Swift vs. Hawk

Time to revisit (again).

What does hawk do that isn't done better by swift, mobile GtA, or statics?

Particularly swifts and to a lesser extent statics, since someone with access to hawks definitely has access to these other options.

Swift is faster, has immortality boost protocol paired with burst (combo much), are cheaper making them more accessible when you need them, are better at intercepting, and lack the weakness that hawks have in lack of maneuverability.

Hawks have a higher hp/cost and dps/cost, but won't make attrition against swifts until the density where their dps will kill swifts before they can boost away. Swifts are still better at moving through opposing territory because boost makes them immune to an entire area's AA.

Hawks are supposed to be better vs. gunships, but they generally die to tridents of equal cost (and this can snowball very quickly), and lose to the GS units like banshee and rapier if the opponent is microing around them (especially rapier who can slow them for additional positioning advantage). Swift can fire their missiles from outside of the range of either unit, making them able to kite them with some effort, which the hawk cannot do.

Hawks can tank hits for other planes a bit better depending on what opposing fire is (since boost will prevent attrition due to dps). They can also DPS krows which is a big deal.

The only time hawk is better is when you have a crap ton of them, and for that level of investment you can get screamer/chainsaw/mass razor which are blatantly more efficient. The mobility is sort of nil unless the map is huge since aa range is big and you don't want to contest the air in opposing territory anyway.

Agree/disagree?

Hawks are better in situations which demand prolonged air engagements, e.g. suppressing Funnelweb drones or melting down Krows.

They lose to Swifts wholesale, down to losing 1v1 due to Swift's maneuverability and their own firing slowdown allowing Swifts to get on their tail and/or disengage when threatened - and up to large-scale combat where there will always be more Swifts because they'll win the early air war and be useful when there are no air targets to shoot and being cheaper and faster so they can all be in one place when needed.

It does feel like building Hawks for anything except hunting Krows and ill-supported Funnelwebs is a noob trap. Ever since the advent of Swifts' displace ability, i've never seen them be effective at anything except the very narrow niche presented above.

On the other hand, i wouldn't want them to become a "default fighter" that just rules the sky once it's contested enough. Swifts are interesting; hawks are not.

Options to consider:
- Making Hawks more interesting (how?)
- Making Hawks do their role better while staying unique and not ruling sky (more HP?)

No sky cloak full stop end line.

Swift is interceptor while hawk is tank fighter.
Hawks mostly is good vs krow and other slow gunships. However krow can bomb them and rapiers slow.
Hawks win vs swifts in large ball and if they are pressed in corner without d gun reloaded. Swift maneuverability losses its ability in masses.
In theory swifts is more usefull in early game and hawks are used later game. But look at hawk - they are slow as shit. They cant fly faster even then raven. Licho just fly in hawk ball and fire missile and hawk ball is ded... Krow bombs them.. As superiority fighter they die against GS combination very fast..
Next problem is aa. So hawks should dominate in late game but ground aa is superior them. Better then build chainsaw. Screamer in lategame beat all anti air defence.
More Hp isnt answer i think. Speed or give them slow dmg is answer but it can also make them OP. Its very diskutable improvment.

quote: No sky cloak full stop end line

Athenamon, use your Existing Precedent attack!

Krowachu and Erasemander, use your Existing Precedent combo!

but yeah, fair enough.

quote: buff their (assumed) strengths.

HP and sustained DPS vs slow target? Either buff is a knife edge to making them counter all GS again.

How about combat regen?

When it is like that, everyone just spams vamps.

It should kill anything that is faster than it, and anything that is able to hit ground.

At the very least it shouldn't lose to these things.

Move boost to Hawk, but make it jam the hawk's weapons for some time after use so it can't be used for interception, only deep-scouting and retreating.

Buff Swift speed and ground-weapon and whatever else to compensate.

So Swift has raw speed, but Hawk has the "super-retreat" so you'll never lose one unless it gets hit by super-high-alpha armaments.

Then roles have been restored. Swift is a fast flying raider but you'll lose them, Hawk is the immortal fighter.

On Hawk vs Swift under this model: the Swifts repel Hawks in a stand-up fight, but the Hawks win long-term because you never lose one while swifts lose on attrition.

And take away the Swift's silly radar invisibility, because radar-invisible is gameplay-invisible and boring anyways. I'd rather just see cloaked units where the decloak radius is several hundred elmos if "stealth" is needed.

How about:
Reduce speed of swift's boost but make it last a bit longer.
Give swift AA missile only.
Give hawk heavy laser bolts that are not 100% hit and able to shoot ground. Also give them AA missile that gives them ability to shoot back at swifts.

Idea is to have a heavy fighter that is able to strafe ground and is slower and less agile than interceptor, that is swift. It would soft counter bombers and fast gunships (with missiles) and hard counter slow gunships such as krow, rapier and trident. With slowed swift boost tridents and rapiers would have much easier time killing swifts.

Now onto comments:
Giving speed boost to hawk is pointless since it could be only used to escape/chase but during toe to toe fight it would not gain anything. Swift on the other hand would be rendered useless because of this.

Air cloak is a no no and radar invisibility serves does not provide any interesting interactions anyway so in my book it might as well be removed.

Tractor beams are interesting but grav beam is a very finnicky at times.

My neonstorm would be to make Hawk interesting through moving boost + burst missile onto it, making it the quick interceptor, and keep Swift interesting through increased interaction with land by buffing the pew.