Post replays here if you died to early Rapiers.

GoogleFrog wants to see some 1v1 and 2v2 replays(or similarly small games) of people's commanders (and base expansion attempts) dying helplessly to early game Rapier gunship-fac strategies.

All elos of gameplay welcome! The more replays of any skill level, the more data GoogleFrog has to assess the early-game OP-Rapier phenomenon.

Thanks in advance!

1 Razor kills all. Go make 1 Razor and run your Comm away. Also, GS is actually pretty bad at expanding with 1 con, since they only have 4BP, which makes expanding much longer.

But if your not ready, yes it is potent. Btw, only circuit bothers to rush them

Is this to do with what I was saying about rapiers? Because I don't think rapiers are that dangerous in the early game.

It's more of a team-game things where rapiers are invincible in your territory, making reactive aggression close to impossible. The only way to attack requires siege, AA-equipped assaults, or late-game tech. Rapiers aren't that strong offensively, they're just stifling on defense for the entire game.

In 1v1 and small teams, gunship openers come at a real cost, and so rapiers aren't as bad.

I guess I think that it's too universal?

From second one, rapier beats all raiders, all riots, all skirmishers, and all assaults (I'm sure there's some late tech exceptions). The only reason you'd ever lose a rapier early is if you make a major mistake. No aggression can happen against you without AA support, but AA support is slow, which rules out raiding entirely. And even when these AA-supported attacks do happen, you have the option to take your mobile anti-everything rapier ball and go attack something else with it. Or better, pick off the AA somehow and get the rest of the attack free with your rapiers.

Rapiers never lose value. Ever. They permanently rule out your entire team getting raided, and act as a large deterrent against everything else. They are a raider/riot/skirm.

Now they really do suffer against ground-to-air sustained dps, but outside of very particular units none of that stuff will ever catch a rapier that's used correctly.

I don't think stabilising the mid-game is something a single unit should be able to do. In fact, I think stability in the midgame is not something desirable in ZK. Stability = porc, eco, and tech with little interaction. I say this as someone who's gameplan benefits most from stable gamestates (I'm a shameless eco-whore). IMO there should always be plays being made. If one unit serves as herald for both players to stop what they're doing and play passive I think that's bad for the game.

I'm not against rapier doing the things it does, but there should be some interplay. If they counter everything capable of entering your domain, at least make them able to be outmaneuvered.

I don't think Rapier opening is powerful, hence the replays. I think more along these lines:

quote: From second one, rapier beats all raiders, all riots, all skirmishers, and all assaults (I'm sure there's some late tech exceptions). The only reason you'd ever lose a rapier early is if you make a major mistake. No aggression can happen against you without AA support, but AA support is slow, which rules out raiding entirely. And even when these AA-supported attacks do happen, you have the option to take your mobile anti-everything rapier ball and go attack something else with it. Or better, pick off the AA somehow and get the rest of the attack free with your rapiers.

Gunship is a powerful switch in part because you can instantly reinforce a lot of near-naked expansion by making a few Rapiers. All raids will just die to them. Attacking armies require AA.

Other gunships have responses. Many riots or raiders can fight Banshee and Blackdawn. Brawler lacks to projectile speed to worry most raiders and DPS/cost to halt assaults before they deal a lot of damage. Rapier is fairly weak to AA due to it's low speed but terrain can often let it catch AA and it doesn't seem weak enough. Less range would impact its ability to fight low ranged ground units with impunity. Less speed would make it more outmaneuverable (and be good quants rule). I think these two changes are the main options.

B447575 2 on Isle of Grief 0.2 died against early rapier. I'm generally not sure how to counter rapier with jumps. It outranges moderator and archangel is something I'd never build in a 1v1 (single point of failure, tiny effective range(LOS), bad coverage due to price).

I don't believe that rapier is too strong of an opening either. But Autowar was asking for replays and I thought I'd use the chance to ask for jumpjet advice.

Archangel can get stunned by a gnat and can only cover a tiny area. He might be effective when properly used, but you need an initial investment of >1000 metal to cover a reasonable expansion.

Archangel's not bad as such but it is expensive. In that matchup you might have to rely on Razors, which does feel pretty bad. At least the metal on Isle of Grief is fairly clustered.

IMO archangel is terrible because of its high price.

The price of being for all intents and purposes non-existent in the early game is not nearly outweighed by its better scaling late game. The jump makes it resilient (which is valuable in an AA), but covers so little area for cost I'd only consider making it in the mid to late game.
It also feels terrible to invest that much in something that applies zero pressure. An opponent can literally fac switch out of air for 50 more metal.

It feels like a dirt-bag scenario, where people see the efficient stat/cost ratio and so think it's good, but the stats are so poorly tuned that there's no winning scenarios (dirtbags aren't terrible, but they do sound better on paper than they actually are).

At least the HT cobra car is fast.

Cobra OP vs Ravens.
And GS since they get too clustered and get blown to bits.

But it's too expensive tho...


@Deinfruend

I would pay the 280Metal for a razor, since that stops all air harrass[/i]