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Lance

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Seems like people want to talk about Lance, so here is the thread for it.
+0 / -0
36 days ago
it makes units disapear
+9 / -0

36 days ago
best unit for teamkilling. highly recommended, 10/10
+4 / -0
36 days ago
Tbh nerfing lance (or/and other artillery) would result in a less dynamic play (pork would be more viable) which I don't think would be a change for better.
+3 / -0


36 days ago
Do I hear an excuse to implement aim delay lance in base game!?
+2 / -0

36 days ago
I thought about making it pure burst like phantom, but then it would go through shields....
What I dislike about lance specifically is the ability to kill tons of light units if they happen to run into the beam. There is no time to react or dodge, as you don`t usually see the lance.
+0 / -0

36 days ago
Kamehameha!
+0 / -0

36 days ago
quote:
Do I hear an excuse to implement aim delay lance in base game!?

Another reason to never stand still unless under a jammer? Someone needs to make a random wiggle widget, then no unit stands still.

IMO requiring lance to prey on the stationary, or having mercy on the random bystanders it vaporizes, makes it much less interesting. Indeed it seems like it would take something out of gameplay in general.

I'm not the most astute in these matters, but I think the solution must involve more lances dying. One option could be reducing the range of lance a bit or giving it some damage falloff, both intended to draw it out a bit closer to the action. Not too close, but a bit closer. Another option could be making it more explosive, reducing clustering.
+0 / -0
Having the lance not instant kill its natural enemy (raiders and air) enables that. Instant firing instant hit lance is too good at anti-raider and anti-air duties. Making it have to give a warning before it fires stops the AA aspect and makes it feel more fair when dealing with cloaked lances.
+2 / -0

36 days ago
As general purpose artillery lance is too costly for hovers but in anti heavy role too effective. Its place is in strider hub as hover strider.
+0 / -0

36 days ago
quote:
Tbh nerfing lance (or/and other artillery) would result in a less dynamic play (pork would be more viable) which I don't think would be a change for better.


Well. In this case problem is units like troll lobsters which is 'artillery' for amphs or uselesswalkers from jumpjets who perform better vs units then against medium/heavy structures. While everyone can spam defense buildings, then few facs can spam general purpose artillery which can clear this porc. Insted there is specialised units who better work against other units then buildings or even troll unit like lobster. Racketeer also falls in same category.
From general purpose artillery against porc we have sling, impaler and emissary. All others is specialized artillery which works better against units then buildings.. And even then there is counterartillery units like cerberus (which of course is more used not in that role but again against other units). And sling sucks for everything stronger then heavy laser turret. But at least it can be massed and are cheap.
+0 / -0


35 days ago
The thing about Lance is that it's too cool for changes that would otherwise make sense. Sure, it would make Quants Rule sense for high burst precision artillery to not occasionally kill a bunch of small units, and not killing the occasional allied Lance would be nice. But that would involve replacing an awesome beam that kills everything for a whole second with a boring pulse of light. And I'm not about to draw a beam for a second while it actually only exists for a fraction of the second. The things that look like they're happening in the game should be actually happening in the game.

Many of its other numbers are too round to change. 3k is a good amount of damage and 20s is a good reload time. Any less damage and it probably starts to feel less good to use. It has to cost 1000 to be transportable by light transports, and commanders can cost as little as 1100.

So what else could be nerfed? Aim and turn rate already feel fairly low, but could be lower. I'd worry about making it too annoying to use though. Although vertical aim speed in particular could be look at if it is too good against planes. I'm not keen on making all heavy artillery deploy to fire. Speed seems like a good candidate. Range also seems like a good option, but I expect it would be very sensitive parameter.

That said, I think Lance is fairly fine at the moment. I don't see the largest games at the moment though, so some replays could help. But in the game sizes I do get to play, I find that the middle of the map tends to be a pretty open dynamic battle. Sometimes a bunch of Lances get involved, but there seem to be lots of other strategies too. I wouldn't want artillery to go away as then I wouldn't get to chase down and kill squishy artillery. Perhaps the most interesting way to nerf Lance would be to buff its counters. Better bombers and raiders mean worse artillery.
+3 / -0
I don't personally think that Lance has to be transportable by a Charon, and besides that aspect, meddling with the cost of Lance seems like the easiest way to tune it while keeping its fundamental properties. Not that I am sure such meddling is necessary.
+0 / -0
35 days ago
How about making it less neutralized by dirtbags?
+0 / -0

35 days ago
If it has to be an awesome unmatched blast of energy, perhaps it should discharge a local emp pulse after firing as part of cool down. That ought to help countering.
+1 / -0
35 days ago
How about increasing the decloak radius of lance a tiny bit?
It would be a minuscule nerf, but makes cloaked lance a little easier to take out.
+0 / -0

35 days ago
How about having the beam ramp up in strength during the one second? So the first little bit is kind of a warning and forces decloak, and the end is intense. You could stretch out of one second a little.

Aesthetically it is pretty cool watching the beam burn through targets. I haven't messed much with Future Wars but that Lucifer that keeps on firing is totally wild. Aesthetically not cool is impaler.
+0 / -0
A reminder that unlike a lot of other arty it's hardcountered by terraform...

BTW how viable is screening a high value target with Halberd / Razor or Gauss (potentially elevated) / Crab ?
+5 / -0


35 days ago
The problem with Lance is that it has no counter in a lobsterpot context.
The AoE insta-hit nature of the beam makes it extremely hard to assault and raid and it counters striders too. It's a sort of hybrid unit that counters EVERYTHING, porc/arti/skirms/raiders/assaults/striders.
Compared to any other unit in the game it lacks weaknesses:
  • Emissary really struggles to hit moving targets, has worse AoE and struggles to reposition, making it vulnerable to raiders and arti (particularly Lance).
  • Merlin can't be built for a good 6 minutes (normally much more) and struggles to hit a fast moving force. It also needs to be microd to avoid friendly fire and isn't particularly good at killing hard targets like striders and demistriders. It's still a strong unit in the pot though.
  • Firewalker is countered by shields or just by high hp units (which are often desireable anyway). And of course, lance.
  • Porc dies to arti. Particularly lance (with the best DPS).
  • Skirms are countered by Stingers and screened lance or emissary
  • Raiders and riots struggle in the pot and can of course be cheaply countered. A single lance shot at a glaive ball will often kill 6+ glaives, 1/3 the cost of the lance!
  • Assaults are one of the better choices, but struggle against a lot of things, on the attack they are often badly outnumbered and will often slowly die to raiders they can't hit. Skirms also tend to wear them down. When not attacking arti kills them. And of course a raised desolator or the like stops them cold.
  • Striders die to Lance. Dante would be much stronger if lance didn't exist, but as it is it's a riot skirm, so it dies even worse than other skirms to lance. Scorp is too slow, so dies to many things. Paladin is a durable lance (honestly a bunch of cloaked lances is normally better, but requires a lot more micro and attention). Ulti isn't much good at its job really. Detri is quite expensive and comparatively short ranged, but at least it's tough enough that it takes more than a lance ball to kill... Though they'll normally make cost

The only thing that comes close to a counter is making terraform walls, which leads to the awfulness of WW1 lobsterpot stalemates.


If its cost were increased to 1500 it would still be quite buildable, probably still better than Emissary.
+5 / -0

35 days ago
Walking bombs {puppy, snitch, limpet, imp} still counter Lance in Lobster Pots.

Ulti sucks now and needs to be optimized as a Strider Raider like it originally was.
+0 / -0
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