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Detri still feels a bit meh

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3 months ago
Detri really needs a significant speed buff and jump range buff. It still has significantly less impact on games than the marginally more expensive drp. The dps is fine and hp probably also ok.

Seems to get stunned by emp units a bit too easily for something so massive...
+0 / -0

3 months ago
Buffing it's speed from just 36 elmo/s to high 40s or straight 50 elmo/s could work to make it a proper menace in fights.
+0 / -0
3 months ago
Invulnerability to emp (and possibly other effects like disarm, etc) would make it much stronger, but I get why devs don't want to do this. What makes detri weak is that it gets so easily permastunned with silos or drp.
+0 / -0

3 months ago
Game ending superunit... for the team that builds it!
+2 / -0


3 months ago
It's very strong in FFA, not sure it can be buffed.
+5 / -0

3 months ago
I feel like Detriment needs some kind of change but I'm not sure what it is yet.
+0 / -0
quote:
It's very strong in FFA, not sure it can be buffed.

Perhaps this is not the ideal way of looking at it: Perhaps Detriment is popular in FFA not because Detriment itself is strong as a unit, but because porcing until superunit spam is strong in FFA, due to the strength of Desolators against non-superunits and also the inherent risks of FFA.
+3 / -0

3 months ago
In teams games which reach the point of building super-units, Paladin and the static superweapons are preferred. I assume that Detriment is considerably more popular, relative to the other superweapons, in FFA than it is in teams.

The advantages of Detriment which apply to FFA but don't matter as much for teams are (a) the fact that it can be concealed and (b) it is far better at wiping an enemy out quickly compared to Paladin.
+2 / -0
3 months ago
I think Detri is pretty strong. The reason it feels meh is because at the price it is very tempting to go straight to even stronger options like Zenith or DRP.

Another point to consider is that a team will often collaborate on a static SW but will not do the same for a Detriment, which means that it will take forever to build and will probably get scouted. It's easy to handle a Detriment if you have a long advance warning. If a team collaborated to build Detri and there was little advance warning then it would be much more effective.

Finally, it is often a lobster weapon. Low ranked players typically make Detriment and as a result even when they finally complete it they use it in a reckless manner, rushing it to its doom. Give a Detriment to a blue star or better; screen it properly, and it can turn a game.
+3 / -0

3 months ago
I agree with that point, a lot of times detriment is out is when it's set on attack move or just normal move into enemy to be used as a nuke worth 24k metal in the best case scenario.
It lacks the range of other super weapons at that price cost but it can move and cloak as well as move around pretty fast with aid of a hercules or djinns.
Any buffs/nerfs would have to account that if it's too good then people will just skip making 2-3 paladins and go straight for detriments, if it's too bad then only paladins or other super weapons will be going out.

I'd go with just movement speed buff again at at least paladin equal movement speed so it can't get kited around since it's job is to break other heavy units. I would like to see the effect of a 50 elmo/s speed detriment, even if it needs a price bump to 25k or 26k.
+0 / -0

3 months ago
IMO detriment should move downmarket and compliment the pally, in the way that various demi-striders are each fearsome in their own way, but also similar in scale. The ability to jump and the D-gun could point towards it being a powerful raiding superunit.
+0 / -0
3 months ago
How about giveing the gaus more range?

My problem with speed is that the Paladin a "lighter unit" should stay faster than Detriment.

I dislike the autoregen because i like feature of supers needding power -> Big stuff needs the backbone to provide for it. If a team cant power the super, they dont deserve it, if they cant repair the detri, " .

About the jump: Why is there a cooldown when it still takes ages from recieveing the order till the actual jump?

Speed: Keeping the speed low makes the Detri take longer to push back the enemy frontline, just jumping in could lead to landing near counter units without any allies nearby and the jump to safety beeing on cooldown. That way the other team has longer to get a counter and it takes the wind out of the "gameender" sail.

Small fry: A Unit such as Detri beeing blocked by small fry which he should be able to just walk over is ridiculous. How about a very low range high dmg outlaw gun strapped to his feet, range low enough that circleing glaives/gnats are unaffected but what he "directly steps ontop" suffers.



tldr: How about more range, more hp, less/no autoregen, faster Jump, keeping speed or even reduceing it, ability to crush small fry with his feet?
+1 / -0

3 months ago
I like the idea of crushing units under it's feet, it would create some interesting gameplay of trying to not get too close to it's feet. I also like the idea of a "faster jump" as in the time delay between your order and it actually jumping is reduced a little bit. (I like the time delay but I think it's a little long)
I do like the autoregen though, I think that should stay.
+2 / -0
3 months ago
Thanks for the comments :D


quote:
HRrankMajo: Buffing it's speed from just 36 elmo/s to high 40s or straight 50 elmo/s could work to make it a proper menace in fights.


I am thinking like 20-30% movement speed, the point of paladin being faster is a bit mute since paladin is more of an arty / support role.


quote:
CZrankSilent_AI It's very strong in FFA, not sure it can be buffed.

I really don't think we should be basing majority game balance on something as wonky as FFA, but the things that need tweaked likely won't really change anything for FFA.

quote:
AUrankAdminAquanim In teams games which reach the point of building super-units, Paladin and the static superweapons are preferred. I assume that Detriment is considerably more popular, relative to the other superweapons, in FFA than it is in teams.

The advantages of Detriment which apply to FFA but don't matter as much for teams are (a) the fact that it can be concealed and (b) it is far better at wiping an enemy out quickly compared to Paladin.

My guess would be in FFA there tends to be fewer larger units and defenses than in team games because the resources are not spread out across the team. So its more common to build larger things which are a more efficient use of metal. Detri struggles against lots of units, but does really well against a few big expensive things.

quote:
ZArankAstran I think Detri is pretty strong. The reason it feels meh is because at the price it is very tempting to go straight to even stronger options like Zenith or DRP.

Maybe if it was better people would rush static superweapons less.
Games where superweapons get made in teams tend to get very frustrating with several people (usual high rank) having to devote all their metal income to stunning the super. Most of the time the team that made super first win as they can easily snipe the enemy super. Doesn't matter how early you scout the superweapon, you always get half the team somehow unaware that it was being built.


quote:
HRrankMajo Any buffs/nerfs would have to account that if it's too good then people will just skip making 2-3 paladins and go straight for detriments, if it's too bad then only paladins or other super weapons will be going out.

Well it does cost the same as 2-3 paladins, so logically you should be building it if that's what you are going to do. Consequently it should be more powerful than 2-3 paladins to account for the extra build time.

quote:
DErankSnowlob Small fry: A Unit such as Detri beeing blocked by small fry which he should be able to just walk over is ridiculous. How about a very low range high dmg outlaw gun strapped to his feet, range low enough that circleing glaives/gnats are unaffected but what he "directly steps ontop" suffers.

I tried something like this when looking at detri before, it works, but should it also affect ally units? If it doesn't kill ally then it looks weird and inconsistent, if it does kill ally then your team will hate you!


Jump either needs significantly more range, 50-100%. Or the cooldown needs to be much shorter (and the time before the jump could be reduced a bit).

For the dgun it feels like it needs some way to attack at longer range / over a larger area, I was thinking maybe a high arc setting for it where the dgun shots are fired up and spread over a much larger area.


As with all big units, it feels like they can't push or be very aggressive because there are so many super effective counters to them. Static superweapons get to enjoy being virtually impossible to reach, but can attack anywhere on the map in short order.


Basically I am saying that more detri = more fun. They are a tangible thing you can kill unlike a super buried at the back of the enemy base surrounded by defences and funnelwebs.


I will play around with a few tweaks and see what people think.
+2 / -0
I think ZArankAstran has an important point, Detri is mostly bad in team games because less skilled players use it, who can't coordinate an attack, don't know what its weaknesses are and don't know when and how to retreat.

A detri isn't an "I win" button, you need to make heavy use of the Dgun, not push beyond your escorts and not push too far (also, know when to retreat).
+2 / -0

3 months ago
quote:
Detri is mostly bad in team games because less skilled players use it, who can't coordinate an attack, don't know what its weaknesses are and don't know when and how to retreat.

No doubt all those things are true of less-skilled players, but I think the important point is that more-skilled players don't build detriments. (As far as I have seen anyway.)
+2 / -0

3 months ago
quote:
I was thinking maybe a high arc setting for it where the dgun shots are fired up and spread over a much larger area.

Maybe you could also have a hotkey to switch between the two. Yeah I think this is cool, to have an option of either a short ranged high point damage or a longer ranged (but could still attack at close range? maybe each individual bullet would have slightly more AoE?) more spread out kind of thing. This would create some cool interactions I think.
+0 / -0
GBrankTechAUmNu
Pala as Arty: doesnt seem well thought through to me, 10k metal for 2 lances worth of firepower and questionabley reliable D-Gun? Where does it leave Merlin?

Affect Allied Units: Im against it, thats why i proposed something akin to a Outlaw weapon which would also be affected by the hold fire button.
The matter of affecting allied units is for my reception the same ethnical debate as the one about autonomous killer machines in RL.
You as Player are now longer in control of the Unit if it can kill without your instruction/permission.
The instance that directly controls the detri would have to consider each step, same as some units(eg Stardust) already refuse to fire when a ally in the way/the target. Im against letting the cobblestones carry that ethnical decision with each movement order and would go the simple path by disableing ally damage, same as the Outlaw weapon.

Jump: Any ideas about the scenario that detri will only move by jumping? Might as well be a stronger Shogun and 2 Lobsters?

Cant push agressively: Its because the metal cost and the stats dont match up! Players always expect to be able to counter a unit with only a fraction of the cost and consider it op if they cant they gotta wake up from that illusion. What fairness is it to the one building the unit?

Supers: They spent at least 30k (+2 Singus) on it and the thoughts are thats its possible to get away with less commitment (undefined shape or form(skill/metal))? Aint that a bit ... perhaps "arogant"/"egoistical" ? The 1.200 metal silo and the 600 metal shockley are already a... for the one building the super.

Detri + less skilled players: ZArankAstran GBrankdyth68
I would go deepr and not see the problem in the fact that mostly less skilled players are makeing it, to me its a sympthom.
I see the problem in: WHY does it seem like "less skilled players are makeing detri"? Why are NOT more skilled players also makeing it?
Aint the reason why new players are suicideing it and the reason why new players make it while experienced ones dont/less one and the same? Aint the lacking cooperation while building it a result of the lacking belief/often suicide of/in it? To me the temptation to directly go for a super instead of detr is just another result of that same chain,

Why aint YOU makeing more detris?
+0 / -0
GBrankTechAUmNu USrankLawesome9
High Arc D-Gun: Merlins are going to want their jobs back!
+1 / -0

3 months ago
Give it an HP buff to 100k HP?
+0 / -0
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