Athena build list

i think the idea is that it cant make units behind enemy lines that can repel a swarm

yea... status quo uber ales... why did i expect anything else...

quote: maybe we can remove all build options and add storage?

mojjj yea, youre right. lets talk arguments. can you tell what yours are behind your claims?

also, i dont work for you, so i dont have to prove anything for you. i can only show you the facts, you draw your own conclusions.

once athena is up fleas and pewes roam and comb the area, so phantom behind enemy lines is a lie. you can push it on one off basis, but in daily use its useless.

I don't get Athena so I have no framework for tweaking it.

The best tweaks I can suggest to Athena is a brake/acceleration rate increase. Having it handle like a dumptruck full of bricks going through a lubricant spill is annoying to the player experience. Seriously, have you tried using one? The momentum is insane.

RTS is not a racing game. People prefer units to be responsive, that was the whole point of the superfluid update, was it not?

GoogleFrog

quote: I don't get Athena so I have no framework for tweaking it.

Maybe treat it as a back-line infiltrator. It's job is to build some stuff that can quickly wreck havok in the back lines (particularly Folsam) and fend off some quick and feeble attempts to dislodge it.

As such, it needs scouting, raiding, possibly heavy raiding (e.g. things like Ravager swarm that outrun interception attempts while being durable enough to push through mid level defences and wreck things along their path), area cloaker, djinn to transport in armies, some AA and some dps to go with the area cloaker. Ideally it should have all terrain versions of things and as much as possible should be cloaked.


As such, Iris, Conjurer, Weaver, Flea, Phantom, Ultimatum, Djinn, Widow, Scuttle, Scythe all seem mandatory for back line havok. Probably also Glaive as the optimal high dps raider. Caretakers, radar towers (but probably not advanced radar) and Cornea also seem obvious choices. For riot to fend off quick raider wipes Redback seem sensible (though I could see an argument for Reaver's AoE DPS). Probably Tarantula for AA. Recluse as a hard to dislodge hill skirm also seems ok.

I can also see a good argument for Impaler wrecking havok with long range and high trajectory. Similarly Artemis to rapidly decimate an enemy air base and Missile Silo for some choice targetting. Can see maybe Aegis to defend those two, but iffy.

Honestly, "heavy raiding" should probably dropped as an idea, but if keeping it I think Ravager's longer range and arcing trajectory shots make it better at run-bys than Halberd, so would probably swap out Halberd for Ravager.

dyth68 that's all well and good, but I think what I really need to know is what Athena shouldn't do. There are a lot of units that make it better as a backline infiltrator, but to go even simpler, adding a unit to Athena will never make it worse. It would be silly for Athena to have every unit though, so I need to know what it shouldn't have. I even think it would be silly for Athena to have all the infiltration units, because then why build a factory for any sort of infilration rather than Athena?

AFAIR the original design of Athena buildlist was some form of "wackiest unit filling given role" and utility, with some weight shifted onto sneaky backline insertion options.

• Conjurer: sneaky, also other cons aren't wackier.
• Flea: wacky and sneaky.
• Bandit: wacky (was effectively the only raider-riot at the time, this also helps to avoid overlap with Flea).
• Halberd: wacky and sneaky (for an assault, in the "snipe back tech instead of regular assaulting" kind of way).
• Scythe: wacky and sneaky.
• Moderator: wacky and utility (was pure slow at the time IIRC).
• Recluse: was probably wacky at the time (less accurate).
• Blitz: wacky (had weird a raider/assault role at the time, and is a vehicle with status damage).
• Knight: wacky (assault with a hitscan, status effect weapon?!).
• Sniper: wacky and sneaky.
• Impaler: somewhat wacky (all other arty can hit mobiles if they try).
• Widow: sneaky.
• Gremlin: sneaky.
• Ultimatum: sneaky.
• Eraser, Aspis, Djinn, Radar, Adv Radar, Caretaker: utility.

Under that framework:

• remove Bandit, since it is quite vanilla nowadays. 3 other wacky raiders to choose from (Flea Scythe Blitz).
• remove Recluse. Moderator exists as a skirm, plus maybe Domi and Placeholder (see below).
• remove Knight, since it's a generic combat unit and Halberd exists as an assault, plus maybe Sumo.
• remove Sniper. Regrettable, but plenty of other sneaky anti-heavies left and we need to make room for wackier stuff.
• remove Advanced Radar, because the basic radar exists.
• remove Sneaky Pete, because Eraser can be morphed.
• replace Widow with Skuttle. Still sneaky but more wacky and !!FUN!!.
• replace Gremlin with Zephyr, because there needs to be something from every fac and it's pretty wacky as AA (and maybe it's good if the AA is crap for counter reasons).
• add Lobster, because it is wacky and utility.
• add Dominatrix, because it is wacky.
• add Placeholder, because it is wacky.
• add Sumo, because it is wacky and there is a lack of heavy units.
• add Scylla, because it is wacky and sneaky.
• add Dirtbag, because it is wacky.