Loading...
  OR  Zero-K Name:    Password:   

Pala rush with new prohibition on pala rush

28 posts, 653 views
Post comment
Filter:    Player:  
Page of 2 (28 records)
sort
So the current changes to the pala rush by introduction of 50e requ for strider fact are dumb. Now you rush pala that its cost is basically not 10k but 11k, with requirement that you put fusion first to get 35e and you get rest from early eco of game start, and that additional 1k for fusion can be offseted by eating strider fact that gives 350m and some 2 labs that makeit 1k if you really need that 1k back, the rest 100 is offseted by existence of fusion at early eco override... the wait for early eco to catch up is equal for waiting for extra metal build of usual rush where instead of waiting for metal late build, you wait early build, after rushing strider and fus, and while you empty wait for rest of base eco to pop up, you gather metal , that goes in faster due to override :)

So the plan is simple, rush fusion, rush strider, place pala, eat strider, eat 2 early place fact and send m to builder players if you really need metal boost for that rush.

Done and dusted.
+1 / -0

14 days ago
i don't think you can get around it, if 1 player can rush a 1k cost unit in the first few minutes, 10 can rush a 10k cost paladin.
+1 / -0
i mean the optimal pala rush is 3 players plop nano, all 10 players plop labs and eat, share metal, and rush pala + fus in under 60 seconds...

with 8 players pala rush should take 2 minutes to complete
9 is the "optimal" number based on math
with 11 players it can be done in less then 50 seconds assuming each player takes 1 mex

+0 / -0

14 days ago
one could make paladin akin to dante in that it is basically not screenable, but that seems very very odd.
+0 / -0
3 paladins in the final game should have a chance to kill a DRP if the enemy team has no palas

There have been games where 3 paladins are not able to win the game when the opponent just makes a drp and wins
+0 / -0



14 days ago
Reclaiming the Strider Hub and some factories was already possible, so regardless of the true cost of Paladin rush, it now costs 1k extra (if you assume players were making 15e already). The Fusion does make overdrive, so it isn't a wasted 1k, but it was already possible to rush a Fusion then a Paladin (or a Paladin then a Fusion), but nobody did so. So I assume rushing Fusion+Paladin isn't something people would do by themselves, so forcing a Fusion is a cost.

Reclaiming stuff has a cost. It reduces factory diversity and the players are going to spend 1/3 of what they reclaimed on building a plate. The old Paladin rush left the team with a Strider Hub for followup.

There would be a problem if Paladin rush is so powerful that people are forced to do it, but now it requires people to reclaim factories. So now people play the same game, but with less. But Paladin rush didn't seem that powerful or reliant on not coming out 20s later.
+0 / -0
As GBrankddaboqepp indicated, with enough players pala rush is always viable. If one wanted to stop it, you'd need a different economic model.

I had an idea that *total team* innate income could be related to map size. I think this would have some "good" effects in terms of limiting strider rush viability to sufficiently (possibly extremely) large maps, encouraging raidable expansion and for dense games to play on larger maps. However there would be considerable negative effects such as making beloved dense lobster games a commander fest, and a drastic change in income for 1v1 on larger maps, which would completely change how the game played.

In theory we could also make the free factory have no nutritional value. I don't think there's much point while every player still gets a much larger M gift though.
+1 / -0
14 days ago
Orrr we could make Ultimatum not suck ass anymore and reset it to pre-nerf utility
+3 / -0

14 days ago
Well, maybe Paladin itself has to change, as sucky as that sounds. All the other options seem like you would change core-aspects of the game just to get rid of that one thing.
+1 / -0


14 days ago
quote:
Done and dusted.

Are there any replays in which it's been actually done?
+0 / -0
I would still like to see the strat, where the opposing team scouts ASAP to see whether the enemy team is making a pala, see that they are indeed building one, and they all immidiately assist one player and his hover factory, make 10 lances for 10k, a cloaker and possibly a shield or two, and then absolutely melt the enemy pala as soon as it comes into range. It should work - the only problem is that it is much more difficult to persuade the team to assist a hover factory instead of assist in the construction of a big strider.
Mumble or some other big clan can do that, perhaps. Much easier to agree on this strategy in voicechat, only after that persuade the remaining players (they will assist more eagerly if they see that 4+ people are already assisting that hover fac).
If someone tries this strat please provide a link. I did not try it yet because I do not trust myself with lances enough, but maybe I will do it in some following games. After all, all you need is a one good hit, 10 lances can kill a paladin with a full health.
+3 / -0
14 days ago
quote:

Are there any replays in which it's been actually done?

(not this theory with lances but pala rush after the grid strider hub nerf)

Yes, for example this one. Pala rush is still viable. 50e is not that big of a deal. Just make a fusion, grid the few solars that would be built nonetheless and start the construction.
https://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/1548117
+0 / -0
-Is there really no counters if a team of 10 is organized and scouts properly with a swift? There must be some viable moves if a few players cooperate. Like how about everyone help their air player to counter-rush 5k of ravens and kill some of the coms building the pala?
-If its still such a problem, make Paladin require energy (eg. 100 or 200) instead of strider hub?
+1 / -0
13 days ago
Why not make the strider fac only able to plop certain units with enough e, so for ulti it would be free, then dante, merlin and funnel cost 50e, paladin 100e, detri 300e. Would stop stupid rushes.
+0 / -0


13 days ago
AUrankAveragePlan : There are TONS of counters with the same level of cooperation (X players assisting one factory).

e.g. if they rush Pala on Zed and your team has same number of players rushing silo you win (Eos alone is cost effective against Pala and you can stun and Eos some coms at the same time).
+1 / -0

13 days ago
I disagree, if there were a strong uncounterable counter it would have to be balanced, otherwise Paladin would be useless.

In any case, if the counter requires the players to act in unity this is deeply flawed. May as well just spec the two best players and chat. Changing the economic model could make each player playing their own micro game of Zero-K the optimal strategy, but it's very drastic.

The other option is to completely artificially limit access to heavy units by time. This could easily be thematically explained. It feels clunky but could be the most effective way to make the game play similarly at different player densities.
+0 / -0
quote:
There are TONS of counters with the same level of cooperation (X players assisting one factory).

I'm yet to see a truly convincing one.

quote:
e.g. if they rush Pala on Zed and your team has same number of players rushing silo you win (Eos alone is cost effective against Pala and you can stun and Eos some coms at the same time).

I will believe this when I see it done reliably. Sounds to me like it loses to terraform; since your silo is going to be pretty close to max range the approach angle will be quite shallow. And if it doesn't 100% work you are extremely lost because you spent all your metal on achieving nothing but making them repair.

(If they dig a hole for the Paladin, you're probably not even going to achieve much with Quake. Or they make a shield behind a wall. Or you are just too slow if you have to mess around with Quake. Any of the above, really.)
+1 / -0
13 days ago
quote:

I will believe this when I see it done. Sounds to me like it loses to terraform. And if it doesn't 100% work you are extremely lost because you spent all your metal on achieving nothing but making them repair.

Yep, that is why I think cloaked + shielded lances could be the optimal counter. Even if you have less than those 10 lances with enough alpha to kill it outright, if the pala drops to 10k health, it needs to retreat and repair, and those lances will be ready again once it comes back into vision.
+2 / -0



13 days ago
quote:
Yes, for example this one. Pala rush is still viable. 50e is not that big of a deal. Just make a fusion, grid the few solars that would be built nonetheless and start the construction.
https://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/1548117

  • Perhaps it will always be viable on Zed.
  • The game looked fine.
+1 / -0
13 days ago
clearly you are all missing the optimal counter to pala rush...

rush the boy with the Dgun!
+1 / -0
Page of 2 (28 records)