Loading...
  OR  Zero-K Name:    Password:   

Half-baked takes - The Jiggle Effect

6 posts, 155 views
Post comment
Filter:    Player:  
sort

2 days ago
Frog puts some amazing effort into his Cold Takes blog (that I know one of my friend's who is getting a board game published enjoys reading!). So, I thought I'd offer my less well thought through, less well written, and definitely uninvited opinions on some design curiousities and potentially things I wonder about tweaking.

This one I am calling The Jiggle Effect.

As I understand it, Zero-K has the general principle that units should take care of themselves. The player should make the important decisions, but units should generally take care of themselves.

At the moment, however, stationary units are very easy pickings for artillery. If you watch a battle and there are emmisaries and particularly impalers, stationary units are very easily picked off. I frequently see AA and constructors killed here - also units like commanders. This for tac nukes as well, where a player has to constantly move their units (like a shieldball or envoys) to avoid these. Patrolling seems to have odd effects, like units moving till they shoot at a unit, then stopping to kill it (if on hold fire), or chasing units if on maneuver.

The effect of this is that I spend more time than I'd like in a game telling my units to do obvious things like avoid impaler shots - essentially my intent is for my units to dodge artillery (or at least retreat), but I don't have an easy way to convey that, so have to spend time manually doing it. I'd prefer to be thinking about what my opponent is planning.


So what do I want my units to do? I want them to jiggle like their lives depended on it - it does!

I'd like my constructors to salsa, my tarantulas to cha cha, and my commander to tango. My shieldball should be doing the locomotion and my envoys synchronised swimming.

Doing so would make them much harder to hit and mean that I don't have to constantly micro them to avoid this! Losing a tarantula because I forgot to move it is 390 metal, or maybe 20s worth. Losing an envoy is like 1300 now and over a minute's worth of metal.


A Jiggle order toggle might save my poor minions lives, but I see some problems with this:

- Units constantly jiggling I think would be visually annoying.
- It would make units harder to select.
- It would potentially make artillery much weaker.
- This concept could also be applied to units moving in a straight line, or even dodging shots in combat, but we don't really want dodging of slow bullets to be a major thing. One microed flea could beat a crab.

Are there other potential solutions? Maybe?

- Something like a "dig in" effect for units not moving might mitigate it, but I don't think solves the issue (we just need to hit it eventually) and creates other problems.
- Could units detect when they are under artillery fire and only start moving then?
- Could the toggle be put in, but it cost e to make jiggling a genuine choice to balance this? Perhaps units make a tiny amount of energy and spend it while moving?
- Could artillery aiming be worse, but area of effect larger? It feels like this might solve the issue, but may remove subtlety from some units.

I don't have a firm solution here - this is half baked - and this of course doesn't break this excellent game, but I would like to do it less.

Until then, I'll be making my units listen to KC & the Sunshine Band -








+5 / -0

2 days ago
or just give all missles homing, so we can have a nice static death.
+1 / -0
Hm, there is a PR for dodging Impaler shots, but it got bogged down. Reviving it is probably a full post.
+2 / -0
2 days ago
cloak and spire are the best anti artilary solutions outside of shields
+1 / -0
2 days ago
I don't see artillery dominating that often, and an auto-jiggle would nerf them further against many players. Is that a good idea? In some cases artillery is an important counter to a unit type.
+1 / -0

15 hours ago
Hmmm, I do wonder if this is worth considering for more than just the impaler - it's probably the most obvious for this, but all other units if they are moving erratically would be a lot harder to hit by artillery. Emmisaries, envoys, merlins, and crabs would be other ones that are strongly affected by this, but I think pretty much all the artillery units.



I think fundamentally it hits on a broader questions of:

Is this a micro that is good for the game and is there an appropriate way to fix it without other big costs?

How much of a gap should there be between the value you get for a unit that is loosely controlled compared to player microed? - and I guess the maximum theoretical if controlled by good AI.

I don't think this is a problem for tiny units and huge units.

A microed flea can cause all kinds of mischief beyond it's value, but it isn't worth microing them too intensely as the value you can get just isn't worth it or when it is it's very early.

An ulti is well worth microing, but you get the value from doing that making it easily worth it.

Units in the middle are more complicated - sometimes it's great fun micro, other times it feels like I'm forced to do some clicking to protect my metal investment - I have to spend a lot of attention doing this.

Some people love the micro (It's not my fav obv.) and that's okay too - I don't think ZK has an anti-micro game design approach - more that it should be worth doing. I am starting to more and more see attention as a resource as well.


I think I would actually prefer tac nuke missiles to be homing and increase the cost of them - or maybe there is a homing version and a non-homing version with a different cost? (But then there's a cost for too much complication and massive balance issues).


Cloak does help, but a good opponent will be exposing that with fleas.

I think I play artillery more than other players haha.
+2 / -0