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Suggestion - merge stilleto and phoenix

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So, the phoenix gets little to no love. It's basically a riot unit, and no sane player should rely on the planes guy for riot support.

Also, people are unsure about the stilleto with it's recent changes.

So i suggest merging the two - the stilleto's downward-shooting lightning rays would become a concentrated fan of heatbeams that stroke the land under the bomber. I can see a couple of uses for this - for one, it would be murder on shieldballs.
Also heatbeams should set targets on fire with sufficient intensity.

If the stilleto is changed like this, the phoenix model could be used for a cool new unit.
+1 / -0


11 years ago
I wouldn't mind merging them by taking every attribute of Stiletto over Phoenix.
+0 / -0
11 years ago
Quote> So, the phoenix gets little to no love. It's basically a riot unit, and no sane player should rely on the planes guy for riot support.

The real problems are:
* AOE likely misses spaced out early riders
* it's useless late game (phönix dies easily)
* you can kill your own ally
* a constant demand that the air player guards it with fighters
* air player has to know if napalm kills some certain unit or need a second
* can miss

Avengers are much better early, because they are fighters too.

It could be better if:
* the game has not so much riot units or anti-raider in general.
* or maps were bigger, the phönix much faster (like Tech-Anni's T1.5 Stratos (fast bomber / core T1 fac + tech center) ).

Maybe we should go back and get bombers which throw bombs - not necessarily on assault-planes like Licho.
+0 / -0
11 years ago
>hundreds posts with good suggestions of unit rework
>finally devs hear it and just buff its damage to concentrated opness
>hundreds posts with good arguments about unit being opness
>finally devs hear it and just nerf it to pure useless


no thanks. better leave this unit alone as it is.
+1 / -6

11 years ago
quote:
So, the phoenix gets little to no love. It's basically a riot unit, and no sane player should rely on the planes guy for riot support.


Agreed that players should not rely on planes for riot support, but if air player can help... its good to have something appropriate in the toolbox. There are not that many units in the air toolbox, so dont reduce options even more by merging units... if anything, air need more choices!
+1 / -1
I think in the current state of the game, units more of the Stiletto's weight and power are more useful, because they can survive a run early on, and be effective even if they die on their first run later on. It's easier to micro your 2 stiletto than your 4 pheonixes that take attrition damage and if they zag the wrong direction, miss all their shots and do nothing.

If I could think of a role for the Pheonix it might be to lay down a field of persistent DoT fire in a large AoE that has low upfront damage but can deny the use of an area over time (and would do full damage to buildings). We need more planes that have synergy with ground armies and offer strategic value, which is what I adore about the Stiletto, and a persistent DoT would allow you to deny an area and dictate troop movements. Sadly this would have more synergy with the old EMP Stiletto (that can keep them still in the fire) than with the current.

A problem is we might already have too much DoT fire at the moment, particularly when you consider what it does to Skirmishers and Raiders. I'd like the Firewalker and Napalm missile to also move away from huge upfront AoE damage and more towards a weapon which forces an enemy to suffer damage for staying in an area. Both these weapons are artillery too, so doing full damage only to statics is kinda the point. It can be hard to make the damage meaningful without nuking raiders, and this does mean assaults (except thugs) are virtually immune (Which is, IMO, ok).

With the current state of air, I just don't think there is a place for early game bombers. If there is, they would have to be more like the multirole: Resistant to enemy fighters early on and offering only a small amount of harassment damage to offset this immunity. Something like a fighter-bomber with a low damage bomb, or an ammo-based weapon that can target ground or air, or a ground attack plane with a long range EMG turret, or a bomber with boost, an armoured state, temp cloak (though I hate the counter structure, or lack thereof, there) etc. It would need to be geared more towards harassing cons, mexes, winds, raiders or turrets rather than comms, factories or armies: And it should not have the capacity to wipe out an enemies whole energy economy like the old pheonix rushes (Which was basically countered by people sometimes using e-cells, making the strat unreliable). If it is focused around comm-sniping, like the old shadow play, it should be around forcing a commander back, and punishing over-extension, rather than systematically destroying all the comms of an enemy who doesn't have fighter cover.
+2 / -0
11 years ago
Too much AOE kills the shield protection.

I would like AOE projectiles to be missiles which explode above the target and split into a equally distributed bomb-rain.

Why?
* No terrain/structure blocking.
+0 / -0

11 years ago
Yes. The problem with riot-bombers is that they're not just good against raiders, but combined riot/skirm swarms get eaten. Remember the days of Rocko spam? When was the last time you saw a rocko swarm?

Anyhow, I've always thought an Outlaw plane (non-bomber behavior) would be fun - slowly fly back and forth over the battlefield saturating the ground and air with outlaw lovin'. But either way, that would be functionally redundant with the new disarm-stiletto.

I like Saktoth's idea of an area-denial Phoenix - drop a low-strength long-burning slow fireball over a long line that makes the area difficult to invade. Or would a super-low-weight fireball-phoenix do that better? Could you do a Wolverine-style customformation-attack to draw the line of "make firewall here"? Such a unit would also be fearsome for demolitions if you had a low-AA base, since long-burning fireballs would be spectacularly effective against buildings that can't run away. It would have to be made of paper, though.
+1 / -0
11 years ago
The problem with that CArankPxtl, AUrankAdminSaktoth is:

The longer something burns, the more time you have to react and repair it.
Repair may be faster then burn damage.

Should it be stack-able or disable/slow repair while it burns?
+0 / -0
11 years ago
Phoenix with one bomb with big AoE napalm is better that lots of small bomb that miss a lot.
+0 / -1
you mean like

?

at time = 2:25
[edit: thx fortaleza! strange i did create the url automatically from youtube]
+0 / -0

11 years ago
DErankNeonSturm - using startfire damage instead of having the fireball directly dealing the damage causes the lack of stacking, and makes the weapon effective against small nimble targets that are still on-fire after they leave the the fireball. If you want area-denial and demolitions instead of riot, that would have to change.

I've tried to look at the fireball code to see how it works, but I can't make heads or tails of it.
+0 / -0
DErankAdminmojjj you miss a "s" (sec) a the end


And it could be, but for all that i care you could keep the same bomb "GFX" that we have today, just want that gameplay wise Phoenix get more controllable.
+1 / -0

11 years ago
I think the pheonix would benefit from napalm that acted more similarly to other types of napalm. From what I can tell it's not area-denial just hit once and hopefully set them on fire. For maximum effect I'd think that the pheonix fireball should take a while to really get going (I think I saw this on the Kodachi) but should be a nice long line so a player can actually make alleyways and the such with fire.
+1 / -0
11 years ago
quote:
a ground attack plane with a long range EMG turret


Make somthing like the AC-130 with side- or bottom- mounted long range guns that can zoom over the battlefield while strafing units below.

Or something like a flying outlaw doing basically the same type of support work, like pxtl suggested. That would be awesome, and possibly could be merged with the radar plane to provide a general-purpose battle-support plane.
+0 / -0