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My First Cast

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I've been wanting to try this for a while, and tonight I finally did.

Zero-K 12/27/2013 - 2v2 on Red Comet (221407) - a cast of Multiplayer B221407 4 on Red Comet

Featuring:
USrankAdminSteel_Blue & DErankShadwo
vs.
CArankneedforsleep & USrankjerad200

Sorry for the lousy video quality. I'm still trying to figure out how to get that right.

Let me know what you think, and be brutal! It's my first one ever, so it won't bother me at all if you tell me it's no good. ... just please tell me WHY it's no good! :)
+10 / -0
10 years ago
It's good for a first cast, but:
- Icondistance should be lower, sometimes you zoom out a bit and it gets hard to distinguish units
- turn on LOS view, especially in the scouting phase, this way you can also see if people have radar or not and can see what the enemy is up to(like when steel_blue sends in his scorcher raids)
- Try to explain some game mechanics like leveler AoE getting trhough thug shields, why it's good to raid, ...

A good thing you did was focusing on the important battle in the middle from time to time.

Keep on casting! :)
+3 / -0
10 years ago
That was quite good. I agree with Flipstip about LoS and icon distance, and a higher camera angle would be good. You missed some of the first roaches and I think you focused too much on the battles in the middle and too little on the sides. There was not much action to talk about on the sides though, and since casts are somewhat instructional you could say about how more raiding at the sides would have been good for both teams instead of piling all their units into the middle.

Maybe it was the pace of the game or maybe it was intentional, but you were talking quite slow. Is that intentional to help people understand the game easier (especially for people who don't natively speak english)?
+0 / -0
I like how you describe whats happen around.
But for me it is too cramped, try to be more flimsy like if u see it first time and u are surprised what happens in a corner. It has no action in it, sorry. But for your first cast it is good. :)

Ah and I really dislike that u can't really identify vehicles or other units sometimes even if u know them, is there a better graphic possible?

Keep goin, I think u can become a good caster!

edit
and I like that u show all commands. The identifying of unit types is maybe because of xray shader or how it is called? Maybe remove it too!
+0 / -0
Skasi
Oh my gosh. I am seeing two mouse cursors! Am I drunk? hic

What's the map border thing you're using? I feel like shadowfury needs that too, 'cause borders are really hard to see in his casts.

You seem to have missed the scout inside the western base from 1:10 to 1:20. I feel like you don't have to be as accurate when it comes to counting unit numbers and types. Pretty nice otherwise.
+0 / -0
Nice! Your talking was quite composed for your first cast.

Dual cursors was weird.

I liked how you moved the camera at one point to a different angle. I also didn't know there was a command to return it to the "regular" angle, but apparently so since you used something like that.
+0 / -0

10 years ago
That was a nice watch!

I like your voice ;-) You speak calmly, it is easy to follow for non-native English speakers.
+0 / -0
Skasi
10 years ago
FIranksprang, I think the reset-camera-option only works for the non-engine camera. It's some widget stuff. I think cofc, but the newer version/name.
+0 / -0

10 years ago
Good job USrankCrazyEddie
+0 / -0
Not bad, especially for a first cast. I only have a few small criticisms:

- Lower the in-game volume. It should be audible, but still at most 1/10th of the volume of your voice (i.e. 10db lower). I'd recommend doing some tests with Audacity to figure out what volume settings you need to have while casting to get this. Depending on how you are recording this, you can actually have the best of both worlds (unless you are using Skype to dual-cast): Record your voice on one track (either via Audacity or DXtory's multi-track recording, or if you use OBS you can adjust the mic volume separate from system sounds), and the game audio on the other, and then mix them in later to more appropriate volumes.

- For some reason the fullscreen YouTube video seems to push everything to the right. That might be a YouTube issue, not sure. I'm guessing you don't have a widescreen monitor handy, but that wouldn't be a bad investment.

- Microphone quality was pretty good, what kind of microphone do you have? I'd recommend a bit of tweaking to reduce noise a bit, but for a first cast it worked nicely.

- I disagree with BErankFlipstip about icon distance. Never forget that everything put on YouTube is not just for current ZK players, but also potential ones, and icon wars isn't the flashiest way to show off the game. Experiment with unit visibility settings to try to find a combination that you think gives the most visibility at distance without icons. I find XRayShader + Outline works beautifully, and if you set icon distance to ~210 the XRayShader will hit maximum right at the icon transition (given default XRayShader settings), though I find having the minimum and maximum set to 2/3rd of default best keeps the details of the units visible as they fade into the distance. If Outline is too taxing on performance, then I wouldn't recommend using XRayShader with Spotter or Teamplatter.

- Good use of the COFC rotation. I've got to remember to do that more often myself.

- Don't be afraid to get excited when exciting things happen. It makes the casts much more entertaining. You've got sober colour-commentary and analysis down pretty well.

Skasi: That map border thing is just fog setting in Map Extension. I've debated using it, since it is a pretty basic (i.e. OpenGL 1.x fixed-function fog) effect. Currently I've been using the Map Border widget to cover that base.
+2 / -0


10 years ago
Everyone, thanks for your kind words and encouragement. I'll take all your suggestions to heart.

Like Shadowfury, I'm inclined to show units rather than icons where feasible because it looks better to outsiders than dot wars. Unlike Shadowfury, I also want to show icons in the strategic view, because a) I think it makes the strategic view more comprehensible and b) I want to show off strategic zoom as a game feature.

I absolutely agree with everyone, though, that the units can get too hard to see. I'll keep tweaking the icon distance and the visibility widgets until I find the best balance. For this particular cast I deliberately increased the icon distance, but I probably overdid it and will tweak it back down a bit. I'm using Outline on the lowest setting; I'll bump it up a little, but not as much as Shadowfury uses. I'll fiddle with X-Ray further, and probably hack on the Spotter widget to tone down its color intensity. But first I'll fix my graphic quality issues, since that probably has the biggest effect on visibility. My current settings actually look nearly pefect on my PC, but are much less perfect when video-captured and played back on YouTube. I think there's something there that I can fix. I'll work on it.

My slow speaking pace was sort of deliberate, but it came out much slower and flatter than I intended. I'll work on amping things up. I definitely don't want to get frantic like many casters do, and I do want to keep it easy for non-native speakers to follow. Honestly, for my first cast, I'm just happy I didn't spend the whole time going "Umm... uh... wow, look at all that, um, stuff." :)

I'll also work on paying attention to the whole map, not just where the fights are, and on explaining things that new players and outsiders might not pick up on on their own. And also try not to focus on uninteresting details. Thanks very much for all that feedback.

Hopefully I can fix the dual cursors thing. It didn't show up in my tests.

The map border thing is a widget option. It works well on some maps, but looks awful on others. I may try to hack on the widget to make it more tweakable.

The camera rotation is from COFC. The return-back-to-the-starting-viewpoint is something I added to COFC. I'm going to use it a LOT. :)

Shadowfury, thanks for the technical notes. I'll do more testing with the sound levels. Re video: I've got a giant glass CRT that I adore; it's rather old and it's 4:3 but everything looks simply stunning on it. I think I can get widescreen capture to work, though. Needs more experimentation.

My mic is a crappy generic boom. I'm amazed and glad that it sounded "pretty good" to you. What kind of noise did you hear, and what can I tweak to improve it?

Thanks again for all the feedback, everyone.
+5 / -0


10 years ago
What recording software do you use? That's really important and may be the cause of the cursor and graphics issues. Also, when did you add "Return to starting viewpoint" to COFC? I would very much like to use that.

As for noise, it sounds like a combination of low-quality compression and speaking wind into the mic. I don't hear a lot of environmental noise, but I do hear a lot of fuzziness on sibilants. Do you speak directly into the mic or across it (i.e. it is off to the side or below your mouth)? Speaking across the mic is really good for keeping volume without needing a pop filter (which kills treble/harmonics) and without getting air from plosives and sibilants into the recording. For my recordings, since about mid-November I've been speaking with my mic right at my cheek at about a 6db internal boost (or 50 on the standard Windows volume control settings) and it avoids noise from my computer while keeping my voice easy to hear.

As for icon distance, I find that no matter what visibility settings I have, it needs to be at most 215.
+0 / -0


10 years ago
quote:
What recording software do you use?

OBS. Found it via Google last night, watched a short overview video, downloaded and installed, and was up and running in no time at all after having never done anything like this before ever.

... except for the part where the video resolution is, um, weird. Played around a good bit last night, will do more shortly. I think I know where the problem lies, and it's probably with Windows or Spring rather than OBS.

quote:
Also, when did you add "Return to starting viewpoint" to COFC?

October. Go to Settings/Camera/Camera Controls, and assign a hotkey to "Set Overview Viewpoint" (I use ctrl+tab). Then in game, move the camera to where you want the "home" view to be and press that hotkey. From now on, when you press the "COFC Overview" hotkey, which by default is tab, it will take you to the camera position you set as "home". You can redefine "home" any time by pressing the hotkey again.

Basically, instead of tab taking you to directly overhead, tab now takes you to wherever you want it to.

I'll give a close listen for the noise artifacts you mentioned. So far I've only listened on speakers, so I'd miss things like that. The mic is positioned about two feet away, pointed at my head, but not directly in the line of fire from my mouth (it's on top of my monitor, and I'm projecting towards the middle of my monitor, mostly). I think it's too far away and too far out of line to be getting air from plosives and sibilants, but I haven't actually checked it or anything. Yet. I will.

The fuzziness may just be because it's a crappy generic mic. :)
+0 / -0


10 years ago
quote:
I think I know where the problem lies, and it's probably with Windows or Spring rather than OBS.

I was right.

If you change Windows text size, then run Spring in Windowed mode, Spring gets the wrong resolution. I'll file a mantis bug for it. Eventually.
+0 / -0
Why are you running Spring in Windowed mode, or do you mean Borderless Windowed? OBS can do Game Capture just fine on Spring, so you don't need to Window Capture the window.

Also, how did you avoid the Spring default command menu popping up when you selected things, as I'm thinking I want to drop Integral menu from my casts (though it is very useful for seeing a factory's build queue, that's the only thing it is useful for in casts). Also, you may want to make the selected units window vanish when nothing is selected, unless that is what is allowing you to get away with no integral menu.
+0 / -0
Skasi
10 years ago
Wasn't there a reset-option for cofc before? Something like alt+ctrl+shift+middle mouse or so. Never used it myself, but seen it mentioned when someone had trouble with their camera. Might do something completely different than I expected though. :)
+0 / -0


10 years ago
quote:
Why are you running Spring in Windowed mode

Because on my PC Spring gets the resolution UNPLAYABLY wrong in any other mode. Windowed mode is the only one that worked at all; it only failed in a hard-to-notice and still-playable manner.

quote:
Also, how did you avoid the Spring default command menu popping up when you selected things

I cheated. Disable the Docking widget and you can move elements like that almost entirely off the screen. But this is a horrible solution. Eventually I plan to make a widget that lets you simply hide the windows you don't want to show, and maybe even have some presets for "play mode" and "cast mode" that reposition and/or show/hide the main GUI elements.

quote:
I'm thinking I want to drop Integral menu from my casts (though it is very useful for seeing a factory's build queue, that's the only thing it is useful for in casts).

Yeah, I decided I didn't want to show Integral during casts. For the factory build queue, I'm using Factory Bar. I want to hack on it so it can show all the factories for a given side, or for everyone in the game, instead of just the selected player. I'll get to that later, someday, maybe.

quote:
Also, you may want to make the selected units window vanish when nothing is selected

I thought about that, but I decided I liked having the region dedicated to that function rather than popping and and out during the cast. It seemed less visually obtrusive that way. YMMV of course.
+0 / -0
I'm not really hearing a lot of noise (although you can hear his keypresses), but the high end suffers pretty hard. Not sure how it loses so much quality (i doubt it's the mic itself), check your sound encoding? Has something telephone-ish to it...
+0 / -0
@MauranKilom: I think you may be right, it is probably just being overcompressed.

USrankCrazyEddie: We have much to discuss about making a better spectator view. I've made some mockups earlier about how I think an ideal spectator display would go, but I didn't think about showing factories (other than each player's Core Selector). My only issue with Factory Bar/Panel is that it doesn't show the order in which the units are getting built, nor does it show whether the factory is in loop (I think, it might have a pair of white arrows in a circle pointing at each other's tails displayed at the bottom-right corner of the factory icon to indicate being in an loop state).

In all honesty, I'd kinda like to have (both playing and casting) the build queues of my factories (in the order they are built) as one widget, Gesture menu for construction, and Unit States handled from the selection widget. Not sure what would handle orders, but I guess that could be a simplified Integral type menu that shows up on unit selection. That seems like it would take up the least screen real estate overall.

Also, how does the resolution get wrong? Is this both Fullscreen and Borderless? What resolution are you setting it to? Is this still more of the text sizing bug? Within OBS you should be able to adjust the position of the capture by using Edit Scene, or just right clicking on the scene that has the capture and going to Position/Size->Center (or hit Ctrl+C), which will help with the centering issue.
+0 / -0
Skasi - Ctrl-Alt-MiddleClick will reset the COFC view. It'll take you to directly overhead, maximum height, north towards the top. It's the "I've gotten lost on the map or gotten the camera stuck help help help" button. But that's different from "take me back to my 'home' view" which is what I implemented.

MauranKilom - The default OBS audio encoding bitrate was pretty low; that may have been what you and Shadowfury were hearing. I've bumped it up to the max now.

Shadowfury:

quote:
how does the resolution get wrong

It's a DPI thing. When you change your text size, you're changing the Windows DPI setting, which tells Windows and all compliant apps to rescale text and icons and related UI features, but without altering image sizes and other things which should be scaled by pixels rather than inches.

Not every application gets this right. When you change your DPI, Spring renders its output at a resolution which makes the in-game text the right size for your new DPI... but which also renders EVERYTHING ELSE at that new resolution. In my case, that effectively lowered my Spring resolution. Spring rendered in low resolution to a window, and Windows / the graphics card / the graphics driver scaled up that low resolution output to match the desktop resolution. So I was getting a scaled-up low resolution video.

OBS captured the low-resolution video without regard to the Windows upscaling, because it's getting it directly from the video card. And yes, I could adjust the position (very easy, very intuitive controls, yay OBS) but that didn't help the basic problem - Spring was outputting low resolution video. OBS can't do anything to turn it into high-resolution; upscaling just makes it bigger, it doesn't add back the missing details, clarity, and sharpness that Spring didn't put there in the first place.

There are similar problems in all three modes: windowed, non-windowed fullscreen, and windowed fullscreen borderless. They result in slightly different issues, but none of them work right, and they all have as their root cause that Spring doesn't deal with DPI changes correctly. Turns out there's even a mantis ticket for this from 2009: http://springrts.com/mantis/view.php?id=1729

But everything's working now. I'm getting perfect hi-res video captures now, because I gave up and set my DPI back to standard. It makes it really hard to read menus and text and such, but since most of what I do with this PC is play Zero-K it's an acceptable trade-off.

FWIW, here's what I'm doing now. I run my desktop at 2048 x 1536 (4:3) with DPI set to 100%. I run Spring windowed, maximized. Now that I've solved the DPI problem I could probably also do either of the other two modes, but I'm used to this now so I'll stick with it. I run OBS and capture at 1920x1080 aka 1080p (16:9). I center the Spring output in the OBS capture region. Then I move the UI panels that I want to show into the capture region and keep the ones I want to hide out of that region.

In my Spring window I see the entire UI and the game at 4:3 ultra-high res. But OBS captures a cropped subsection of that, which is functionally native 1080p. And due to the placement of the UI panels, it looks like a real 1080p Spring window would on someone's widescreen flatpanel. And it plays back in full 1080p on youtube.

So I'm cheating again. :)

Edit: The DPI issue is also what was causing the double-cursor thing. OBS was getting information that it was in two different places - one with the right DPI scaling, and one without. No idea why. But that's what was happening.

quote:
We have much to discuss about making a better spectator view.

In keeping with Spring / Zero-K tradition, I expect we'll end up with multiple better spectator views. :)

I expect you and I want similar things here, but not exactly the same in everything. As I get time I'll be scratching my own itches, and if I can scratch some of yours in the process, well, then, I'm happy to help.
+1 / -0
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