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@katastrophe my reading of this thread isn't that @Aquanim is saying nothing can or should be done to reduce toxicity, just that he disagrees that your proposals will work or dislikes the implicit tradeoffs. I think you may also have different standards of toxicity, with @Aquanim's stance appearing to be "it isn't that much to ask people to not votekick or abuse each other", while you seem to be talking about more subtle forms of toxicity and things that make the social aspect of the game less fun in general.
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@katastrophe my reading of this thread isn't that @Aquanim is saying nothing can or should be done to reduce toxicity, just that he disagrees that your proposals will work or dislikes the implicit tradeoffs. I think you may also have different standards of toxicity, with @Aquanim's stance appearing to be "it isn't that much to ask people to not votekick or abuse each other", while you seem to be talking about more subtle forms of toxicity and things that make the social aspect of the game less fun in general.
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I think you may be forgetting how hard it can be for some players to achieve basic teamgame competent, and unaware of the ways that new players are currently guided into the game. For example, the player can know all of this:
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I think you may be forgetting how hard it can be for some players to achieve basic teamgame competent, and unaware of the ways that new players are currently guided into the game. For example, the player can know all of this:
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[q]The only thing one CAN demand imho is that players somehow know how to control this game on an absolute basic level.
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[q]The only thing one CAN demand imho is that players somehow know how to control this game on an absolute basic level.
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- know how to select units and buildings
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- know how to select units and buildings
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- have a vague idea that income and map control are related
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- have a vague idea that income and map control are related
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- have an idea that the game is about annihilating your enemy. (i know that sounds funny but somehow you get the feeling that some players do assume their enemies will go away by themself. ok, suggestive.) In this case, you cannot do more than somehow tell them: "please be aware that if you chose to play in a team with others, they need your participation."[/q]
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- have an idea that the game is about annihilating your enemy. (i know that sounds funny but somehow you get the feeling that some players do assume their enemies will go away by themself. ok, suggestive.) In this case, you cannot do more than somehow tell them: "please be aware that if you chose to play in a team with others, they need your participation."[/q]
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but be so overwhelmed that they act at 10% the speed of a newbie with a bit of experience. A player can have knowledge and the intention to help, but look like they aren't doing anything because it takes them ten minutes to complete their base. An appreciation for pacing and efficiently using time is a learnt skill, many games don't care how slowly or methodically you make your way through their UIs (TBS games, colony management games).
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but be so overwhelmed that they act at 10% the speed of a newbie with a bit of experience. A player can have knowledge and the intention to help, but look like they aren't doing anything because it takes them ten minutes to complete their base. An appreciation for pacing and efficiently using time is a learnt skill, many games don't care how slowly or methodically you make your way through their UIs (TBS games, colony management games).
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I disagree with demands such as those above because, from what I have seen, your demands tend to already be satisfied. I have watched new players and streamers. They know how to select things, about income and that they eventually have to destroy the enemy. They just sometimes do these things incredibly slowly and inefficiently. For income they may send one constructor out to expand, have it die to a raider, and then forget about it for the next 20 minutes. The same can happen with destroying the enemy, or they may opt to destroy the enemy with artillery (because it is cool).
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I disagree with demands such as those above because, from what I have seen, your demands tend to already be satisfied. I have watched new players and streamers. They know how to select things, about income and that they eventually have to destroy the enemy. They just sometimes do these things incredibly slowly and inefficiently. For income they may send one constructor out to expand, have it die to a raider, and then forget about it for the next 20 minutes. The same can happen with destroying the enemy, or they may opt to destroy the enemy with artillery (because it is cool).
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An actually effective demand would be something like "demonstrated ability to defeat Easy AI on Titan Duel in under 10 minutes", but that sounds far too onerous. If you've got replays or other data that says otherwise then share it.
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An actually effective demand would be something like "demonstrated ability to defeat Easy AI on Titan Duel in under 10 minutes", but that sounds far too onerous. If you've got replays or other data that says otherwise then share it.
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There may also be a miscommunication around what currently exists to guide new players. @katastrophe when was the last time you reset the game and took a look at what new players see? Go have a look, and have a look at all the mechanics that reduce social friction. You may think that you're directing us at low hanging fruit receiving unreasonable pushback in return, when in fact the low hanging fruit was already plucked. This comes off as you demanding we do a lot of work, on your particular approach, and that not doing the work constitutes not taking the issue seriously. You're ignoring or unaware of the work that already exists.
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There may also be a miscommunication around what currently exists to guide new players. @katastrophe when was the last time you reset the game and took a look at what new players see? Go have a look, and have a look at all the mechanics that reduce social friction. You may think that you're directing us at low hanging fruit receiving unreasonable pushback in return, when in fact the low hanging fruit was already plucked. This comes off as you demanding we do a lot of work, on your particular approach, and that not doing the work constitutes not taking the issue seriously. You're ignoring or unaware of the work that already exists.
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Some of your suggestions were met with "that seems like an inefficient way to spend developer time", which tends you mean you're free to work on it yourself if you consider it important. You could make optional challenge missions that are suggested for people before they hop into multiplayer. It's open source, doing the legwork yourself is much more effective than trying to argue others into doing it for you.
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Some of your suggestions were met with "that seems like an inefficient way to spend developer time", which tends you mean you're free to work on it yourself if you consider it important. You could make optional challenge missions that are suggested for people before they hop into multiplayer. It's open source, doing the legwork yourself is much more effective than trying to argue others into doing it for you.
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I think we only really disagree on whether there should be barriers in place that prevent completely new players from playing multiplayer in the casual room.
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I think we only really disagree on whether there should be barriers in place that prevent completely new players from playing multiplayer in the casual room.
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[q]So why not at least TRY to make the first few missions a requirement to join team-multiplayer? This has been proposed by many people multiple times already but was always brushed off.
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[q]So why not at least TRY to make the first few missions a requirement to join team-multiplayer? This has been proposed by many people multiple times already but was always brushed off.
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I know your assumption is that this will have a repulsive effect on new players. Many of my points are based on assumptions as well. The only way to find out if those assumptions are correct is to test them. I am absolutely willing to change my opinion on those topics if my assumtions are proven wrong. [/q]
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I know your assumption is that this will have a repulsive effect on new players. Many of my points are based on assumptions as well. The only way to find out if those assumptions are correct is to test them. I am absolutely willing to change my opinion on those topics if my assumtions are proven wrong. [/q]
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* Being invited to play a game with a friend only to hit a forced tutorial is frustrating. Referrals like this are big for game growth. Forced tutorials introduce friction.
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* Being invited to play a game with a friend only to hit a forced tutorial is frustrating. Referrals like this are big for game growth. Forced tutorials introduce friction.
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* As I said before, I don't think you'll see much of an improvement in apparent competence from a significant minority of players that are forced through the tutorial, if they manage to stick around through the tutorial in the first place.
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* As I said before, I don't think you'll see much of an improvement in apparent competence from a significant minority of players that are forced through the tutorial, if they manage to stick around through the tutorial in the first place.
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* The big teams room is the default way to play multiplayer, and it isn't particularly serious. Other modes exist for more organised games.
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* The big teams room is the default way to play multiplayer, and it isn't particularly serious. Other modes exist for more organised games.
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* There is no system for this. You should not be forced to redo the campaign if you switch computer. Such things take infrastructure work.
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* There is no system for this. You should not be forced to redo the campaign if you switch computer. Such things take infrastructure work.
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* How do we even measure the effect to run a test? Such measurement would require infrastructure work.
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* How do we even measure the effect to run a test? Such measurement would require infrastructure work.
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* The test has very skewed outcome salience. Fewer new players in multiplayer will probably make the toxic vets less toxic, which is an immediate effect. The longer term effect of reducing the players coming into multiplayer is much more subtle but potentially much more important.
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* The test has very skewed outcome salience. Fewer new players in multiplayer will probably make the toxic vets less toxic, which is an immediate effect. The longer term effect of reducing the players coming into multiplayer is much more subtle but potentially much more important.
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Basically there are four types of new players that join multiplayer:
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Basically there are four types of new players that join multiplayer:
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* Type A: Those that play the tutorial/singleplayer first before joining multiplayer, and will have already done the forced tutorial or are happy to do it for multiplayer.
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* Type A: Those that play the tutorial/singleplayer first before joining multiplayer, and will have already done the forced tutorial or are happy to do it for multiplayer.
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* Type B: Those that play the tutorial/singleplayer first before joining multiplayer, but that have not done the forced tutorial and would be turned away from multiplayer by the requirement.
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* Type B: Those that play the tutorial/singleplayer first before joining multiplayer, but that have not done the forced tutorial and would be turned away from multiplayer by the requirement.
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* Type C: Those that ignore the current prompting and play multiplayer first, but would make it through a forced tutorial.
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* Type C: Those that ignore the current prompting and play multiplayer first, but would make it through a forced tutorial.
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* Type D: Those that ignore the current prompting and play multiplayer first, but would be turned away by a forced tutorial.
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* Type D: Those that ignore the current prompting and play multiplayer first, but would be turned away by a forced tutorial.
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For forcing a tutorial to be valuable (for the purpose of making players more skilled without reducing the playerbase), you need type B and D players to be rare and for type C players to gain a lot from the tutorial. I don't think type D players are sufficiently rare or that type C players would, on average, gain much apparently competence from a short tutorial. Make the tutorial longer and you just push more players from type C to type D.
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For forcing a tutorial to be valuable (for the purpose of making players more skilled without reducing the playerbase), you need type B and D players to be rare and for type C players to gain a lot from the tutorial. I don't think type D players are sufficiently rare or that type C players would, on average, gain much apparently competence from a short tutorial. Make the tutorial longer and you just push more players from type C to type D.
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| 36 |
If
you
barely
care
about
gaining
new
players
then
a
forced
tutorial
has
few
downsides.
The
issue
with
discussions
like
this
is
that
players
will
tend
to
care
about
their
own
enjoyment
over
the
longevity
of
the
game.
I'm
not
saying
it
is
happening
here,
but
there
are
certainly
players
who
would
like
to
remove
new
players
and
play
higher
quality
ZK
for
the
few
years
it
takes
for
it
to
collapse
under
the
lack
of
player.
|
36 |
If
you
barely
care
about
gaining
new
players
then
a
forced
tutorial
has
few
downsides.
The
issue
with
discussions
like
this
is
that
players
will
tend
to
care
about
their
own
enjoyment
over
the
longevity
of
the
game.
I'm
not
saying
it
is
happening
here,
but
there
are
certainly
players
who
would
like
to
remove
new
players
and
play
higher
quality
ZK
for
the
few
years
it
takes
for
it
to
collapse
under
the
lack
of
new
players.
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A thread about community management