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A little bit about the lack of fencer use on my part, and decision not to expand on the cliffs: Map chokeyness/rover horizontal dominance.
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1 |
A little bit about the lack of fencer use on my part, and decision not to expand on the cliffs: Map chokeyness/rover horizontal dominance.
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| 3 |
In scaryland, desert rumble, jurassic sands or say cobalt dream, you are totally free to spam fencers and you may even get success against knights using them like randy would. That's because there's enough open space to juke-fire-juke-fire with them on these maps. In ravaged, there's limited space to do so, and so you can't get the required most out of them for unit to unit combat in this way. The same limitation doesn't affect badger, so it's the better choice here.
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In scaryland, desert rumble, jurassic sands or say cobalt dream, you are totally free to spam fencers and you may even get success against knights using them like randy would. That's because there's enough open space to juke-fire-juke-fire with them on these maps. In ravaged, there's limited space to do so, and so you can't get the required most out of them for unit to unit combat in this way. The same limitation doesn't affect badger, so it's the better choice here.
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Meanwhile, because of rover's relatively horizontal play, my strategy was to prioritize taking the middle 2 expansions where my units would have more space to move around and wouldn't struggle engaging in combat uphill. Very deliberate, definitely at a cost.
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Meanwhile, because of rover's relatively horizontal play, my strategy was to prioritize taking the middle 2 expansions where my units would have more space to move around and wouldn't struggle engaging in combat uphill. Very deliberate, definitely at a cost.
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The RPS comes in here for a couple of reasons - I'm forced to use rippers to secure expansions, which are expensive and slow compared to the granularity of glaives. I am forced because scorcher is simply too conditional of a unit and frequently suffers against glaives/bandits in adverse conditions. Also, producing scorchers vs cloakbots is a factory RPS nono. Reavers, Knights, Snitches all invalidate the use of scorcher - so why even go deep on them? I won't even get into how easily spread glaives can toast rippers. RPS disadvantage #1.
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The RPS comes in here for a couple of reasons - I'm forced to use rippers to secure expansions, which are expensive and slow compared to the granularity of glaives. I am forced because scorcher is simply too conditional of a unit and frequently suffers against glaives/bandits in adverse conditions. Also, producing scorchers vs cloakbots is a factory RPS nono. Reavers, Knights, Snitches all invalidate the use of scorcher - so why even go deep on them? I won't even get into how easily spread glaives can toast rippers. RPS disadvantage #1.
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| 9 |
Next up, I've spoken about why badger and not fencer. Badger does have the luxury of being good vs slings, so the incentive is there. The RPS comes in when knight presents. Obviously we know that a protractor of fencers is good at dealing with them in open spaces, but outside of these circumstances rovers have no unit composition capable of dealing with knights. Dominatrix should be the go-to option here but knights insane capture time, easy cloakability and "highly likely to stun you whilst you turn" range makes it mostly a bad idea. That's ignoring the fact that ronin/glaive/sniper/sling can make domi's life hell. RPS disadvantage #2 - only map related in that fencer couldn't easily come to the rescue.
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Next up, I've spoken about why badger and not fencer. Badger does have the luxury of being good vs slings, so the incentive is there. The RPS comes in when knight presents. Obviously we know that a protractor of fencers is good at dealing with them in open spaces, but outside of these circumstances rovers have no unit composition capable of dealing with knights. Dominatrix should be the go-to option here but knights insane capture time, easy cloakability and "highly likely to stun you whilst you turn" range makes it mostly a bad idea. That's ignoring the fact that ronin/glaive/sniper/sling can make domi's life hell. RPS disadvantage #2 - only map related in that fencer couldn't easily come to the rescue.
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With the above two combined, this forces an already disadvantaged facswitch.
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With the above two combined, this forces an already disadvantaged facswitch.
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So what's the core of the issue - Is it the map design, is it the players, is it knights, is it fencers? Hard to get to the bottom of.
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So what's the core of the issue - Is it the map design, is it the players, is it knights, is it fencers? Hard to get to the bottom of.
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I'd say the core of the issue is lack of ability to actively remedy RPS in a game. Facswitches are expensive. Commander upgrades create vulnerability. Turrets are limited (and mostly liable to arty in today's meta). I really believe that cheaper factories or a cheapish factory-morph command need exploring a little more.
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I'd say the core of the issue is lack of ability to actively remedy RPS in a game. Facswitches are expensive. Commander upgrades create vulnerability. Turrets are limited (and mostly liable to arty in today's meta). I really believe that cheaper factories or a cheapish factory-morph command need exploring a little more.
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[spoiler]In a vacuum containing me and izirayd, it's very easy for me to say that factory RPS is the key decider in most of our games. Also why you see izi complain on the forum so frequently. He becomes frustrated for matchups that are purely down to luck, out of his control.
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[spoiler]In a vacuum containing me and izirayd, it's very easy for me to say that factory RPS is the key decider in most of our games. Also why you see izi complain on the forum so frequently. He becomes frustrated for matchups that are purely down to luck, out of his control.
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The @Godde part of the equation is slightly divergent from RPS - it's the @Godde doctrine of the "Optimal factory". I am 100% convinced by now that he will always play the factory most balanced towards success on any given map, and he's adamant that his factory choice is the correct one, as shown by him frequently mentioning to me and randy that "he can't take us seriously because we play the wrong factories".
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The @Godde part of the equation is slightly divergent from RPS - it's the @Godde doctrine of the "Optimal factory". I am 100% convinced by now that he will always play the factory most balanced towards success on any given map, and he's adamant that his factory choice is the correct one, as shown by him frequently mentioning to me and randy that "he can't take us seriously because we play the wrong factories".
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Here's how his world looks from the outside: Hover on flats. Spiders on any map with cliffs/chokes. Jumps on any similar maps with either high-reclaim or gaps spiders can't cross. Tanks on cobalt dream. Amph on any map where they can regen.
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Here's how his world looks from the outside: Hover on flats. Spiders on any map with cliffs/chokes. Jumps on any similar maps with either high-reclaim or gaps spiders can't cross. Tanks on cobalt dream. Amph on any map where they can regen.
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| 23 |
Is
his
success
with
those
factories
on
said
maps
because
their
is
balance/design
truth
to
be
learned
from
-
that
his
factory
choices
are
the
least
prone
to
factory
RPS?
Or
just
that
they
are
overpowered
in
an
aspect
enabled
by
the
terrain
(
again,
see
predictive
aiming
boosted
dagger
spam,
unhittable
recluses,
etc)
.
As
randy
put
it.
.
.
"When
was
the
last
time
you
saw
Godde
play
rovers".
Whether
the
statement
is
100%
true
or
not,
the
point
is
that
balance
dictates
he
has
no
reason
to
do
so.
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Is
his
success
with
those
factories
on
said
maps
because
their
is
balance/design
truth
to
be
learned
from
-
that
his
factory
choices
are
the
least
prone
to
factory
RPS?
Or
just
that
they
are
overpowered
in
an
aspect
enabled
by
the
terrain
(
again,
see
predictive
aiming
boosted
dagger
spam,
unhittable
recluses,
etc)
.
As
randy
put
it.
.
.
"When
was
the
last
time
you
saw
Godde
play
rovers".
Whether
the
statement
is
100%
true
or
not
(
he
does
play
rover
fencer
rush
on
Desert
Rumble)
,
the
point
is
that
balance
and
RPS
vulnerability
dictates
he
has
no
incentive
to
frequently
do
so.
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| 25 |
On a personal note, I find the idea of playing a single factory for each map a joyless submission to cold facts and would really rather spice things up outside of factory units.[/spoiler]
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25 |
On a personal note, I find the idea of playing a single factory for each map a joyless submission to cold facts and would really rather spice things up outside of factory units.[/spoiler]
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B1003291 2 on Ravaged_v2 (Multiplayer)