| 1 |
[q]I'm not loving the stardust change. I was onboarding some new players and they complained that it felt like every unit had special rules, making the game require encyclopedic knowledge of obscure details of special unit features, and "stardusts can overheat" definitely fits in that category.[/q]
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1 |
[q]I'm not loving the stardust change. I was onboarding some new players and they complained that it felt like every unit had special rules, making the game require encyclopedic knowledge of obscure details of special unit features, and "stardusts can overheat" definitely fits in that category.[/q]
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| 2 |
This is the idea of every new mechanic counting against the complexity budget, and I certainly voiced the concern a few times in testing. I didn't get much pushback for heat so I figure it might not be too complex. I made the mechanic and am still a bit surprised it ended up in the game. I half expect it to go the way of other complex and unique ideas (eg Archer tank and Ronin slowing on reload), as I like to remove unnecessary complexity, but then again things like Disarm and Slow started out small too.
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2 |
This is the idea of every new mechanic counting against the complexity budget, and I certainly voiced the concern a few times in testing. I didn't get much pushback for heat so I figure it might not be too complex. I made the mechanic and am still a bit surprised it ended up in the game. I half expect it to go the way of other complex and unique ideas (eg Archer tank and Ronin slowing on reload), as I like to remove unnecessary complexity, but then again things like Disarm and Slow started out small too.
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| 3 |
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| 4 |
The question to me isn't whether it is complex, but whether it is worth paying the price of complexity. Heat made it into the game because I think medium ranged units need a bit of attention. Part of the power of artillery and long-ranged skirmishers is that such an army can't be stopped by a few Stardusts (which may even be hastily constructed to block an army). While Stardust fulfills a useful role in making the raider game end on open maps, it was also good at stopping assaults. Knight may, in part, be a particular good assault because it can quickly stun a Stardust, limiting the damage it receives.
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4 |
The question to me isn't whether it is complex, but whether it is worth paying the price of complexity. Heat made it into the game because I think medium ranged units need a bit of attention. Part of the power of artillery and long-ranged skirmishers is that such an army can't be stopped by a few Stardusts (which may even be hastily constructed to block an army). While Stardust fulfills a useful role in making the raider game end on open maps, it was also good at stopping assaults. Knight may, in part, be a particular good assault because it can quickly stun a Stardust, limiting the damage it receives.
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| 5 |
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| 6 |
There aren't many ways to make Stardust worse vs assaults without making it similarly worse against raiders, at least without redesigning its weapon or dipping into armour classes. Heat exploits the fact that a Stardust vs. raider battle is generally resolved much more quickly than a Stardust vs. assault battle. The solution is simply to give Stardust less DPS in longer battles. It's a pretty ugly solution, but it's all we could think of, and I think the complexity price is worth paying, at least to see what transpires.
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6 |
There aren't many ways to make Stardust worse vs assaults without making it similarly worse against raiders, at least without redesigning its weapon or dipping into armour classes. Heat exploits the fact that a Stardust vs. raider battle is generally resolved much more quickly than a Stardust vs. assault battle. The solution is simply to give Stardust less DPS in longer battles. It's a pretty ugly solution, but it's all we could think of, and I think the complexity price is worth paying, at least to see what transpires.
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| 7 |
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| 8 |
On
complexity
in
general,
I
don't
think
Zero-K
is
uniquely
complex,
rather,
I
think
we
could
do
a
lot
better
at
easing
people
into
the
complexity.
Many
games
would
completely
obscure
the
hidden
states
and
modifiers
that
make
the
underlying
game
run.
I'm
thinking
of
C&C
armour
classes
or
the
entirety
of
Company
of
Heroes
style
games.
Zero-K
attempts
a
level
of
transparency
that
probably
backfires
by
giving
people
the
impression
that
they
need
to
remember
it
to
play.
I
put
a
heat
gauge
on
Stardust
so
people
could
see
how
it
is
working,
or
at
least
that
something
is
happening,
but
I
could
have
easily
left
it
off.
I
doubt
that
new
players,
and
possibly
many
others,
would
have
noticed.
I
think
the
best
onboarding
reassures
people
that
they
don't
need
to
know
very
much
to
start
playing
and
having
fun.
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8 |
On
complexity
in
general,
I
don't
think
Zero-K
is
uniquely
complex,
rather,
I
think
we
could
do
a
lot
better
at
easing
people
into
the
complexity.
Many
games
would
completely
obscure
the
hidden
states
and
modifiers
that
make
the
underlying
game
run.
I'm
thinking
of
C&C
armour
classes
or
the
entirety
of
Company
of
Heroes
style
games.
Zero-K
attempts
a
level
of
transparency
that
probably
backfires
(
sometimes)
by
giving
people
the
impression
that
they
need
to
understand
it
all
to
play.
For
example,
I
put
a
heat
gauge
on
Stardust
so
people
could
see
how
it
is
working,
or
at
least
that
something
is
happening,
but
I
could
have
easily
left
it
off.
I
doubt
that
new
players,
and
possibly
many
others,
would
have
noticed.
I
think
the
best
onboarding
reassures
people
that
they
don't
need
to
know
very
much
to
start
playing
and
having
fun.
Most
of
my
Age
of
Empires
2
playtime
is
probably
from
before
I
knew
about
variable
food
gather
rates
or
the
hidden
armour
classes
(
the
ones
that
don't
show
up
on
the
UI)
.
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| 9 |
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| 10 |
[q]So, against Stardust, it's best to sit for a couple of seconds outside of range so the stardust overheats trying to futily shoot at a slightly out-of-range unit...
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10 |
[q]So, against Stardust, it's best to sit for a couple of seconds outside of range so the stardust overheats trying to futily shoot at a slightly out-of-range unit...
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| 11 |
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| 12 |
This seems like annoying janky micro to me. [/q]
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12 |
This seems like annoying janky micro to me. [/q]
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| 13 |
Do you have a test case or is this all theory? This is the first thing I thought of. First of all I discovered that the behaviour you're talking about doesn't exist. Stardust doesn't shoot at stationary units beyond its range. The I tried jinking in and out of range to abuse the aim lookahead and projectile travel time. It is of course possible to configure heat such that jinking in an out of range causes real heat rise, so I made sure not to do that.
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13 |
Do you have a test case or is this all theory? This is the first thing I thought of. First of all I discovered that the behaviour you're talking about doesn't exist. Stardust doesn't shoot at stationary units beyond its range. The I tried jinking in and out of range to abuse the aim lookahead and projectile travel time. It is of course possible to configure heat such that jinking in an out of range causes real heat rise, so I made sure not to do that.
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| 14 |
https://i.imgur.com/CQJQNBk.png
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14 |
https://i.imgur.com/CQJQNBk.png
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| 15 |
Stardust intermittently reaches about 20% heat with a setup like this. It dissipates in about a second. The Glaives have to be pretty spread to avoid AoE from each other. The Stardust loses a lot of heat switching between targets and being confused. It could be pushed higher with a perfect widget, but then again a perfect widget could do a lot of things. The benefit is sufficiently low for me to not worry about it.
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15 |
Stardust intermittently reaches about 20% heat with a setup like this. It dissipates in about a second. The Glaives have to be pretty spread to avoid AoE from each other. The Stardust loses a lot of heat switching between targets and being confused. It could be pushed higher with a perfect widget, but then again a perfect widget could do a lot of things. The benefit is sufficiently low for me to not worry about it.
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| 16 |
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16 |
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| 17 |
[q]I don't understand why skydust was presenting a problem for heavy tanks. Any tank can kill stardust easily...why make it worse? [/q]
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17 |
[q]I don't understand why skydust was presenting a problem for heavy tanks. Any tank can kill stardust easily...why make it worse? [/q]
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| 18 |
Skydust was very efficient, even vs Minotaur. It had 145% more DPS/Cost than Lotus. Attacking into that sort of damage is very tricky when the defenses have a little support. It's now down to 27% more DPS/cost after about 7 seconds of firing.
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18 |
Skydust was very efficient, even vs Minotaur. It had 145% more DPS/Cost than Lotus. Attacking into that sort of damage is very tricky when the defenses have a little support. It's now down to 27% more DPS/cost after about 7 seconds of firing.
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| 19 |
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| 20 |
[q]Cool stuff. Any more planned where drones VS skirmisher/lance/phantom AI is concerned or is there already a solution? [/q]
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20 |
[q]Cool stuff. Any more planned where drones VS skirmisher/lance/phantom AI is concerned or is there already a solution? [/q]
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| 21 |
It is a problem. Maybe someone is working on it.
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21 |
It is a problem. Maybe someone is working on it.
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| 22 |
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| 23 |
[q]This is what all cloakies look like to me after the newest patch, the whole texture is the color of the player that has built them. [/q]
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23 |
[q]This is what all cloakies look like to me after the newest patch, the whole texture is the color of the player that has built them. [/q]
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| 24 |
As far as I know nothing changed with those models. A missing texture could be a corrupt download. Try verifying files or deleting the game archive in Zero-K/games.
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24 |
As far as I know nothing changed with those models. A missing texture could be a corrupt download. Try verifying files or deleting the game archive in Zero-K/games.
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Zero-K v1.9.2.0 - Hot Stardust and Curtailed Cloaking