| 1 |
I'm waiting for evidence/demonstration to back up the OP. Dig up and compare games from years ago. Trawl the balance patches and make a mod to approximate old versions, then test them. Otherwise I'm sort of left with the impression of rose-tinted glasses.
|
1 |
I'm waiting for evidence/demonstration to back up the OP. Dig up and compare games from years ago. Trawl the balance patches and make a mod to approximate old versions, then test them. Otherwise I'm sort of left with the impression of rose-tinted glasses.
|
| 2 |
\n
|
2 |
\n
|
| 3 |
16v16 has always been relatively porcy. As far as I can tell such games have become more army-focused in recent years, not less. I've watched fairly recent games on LLTA complex that are almost all army on the flatlands, and this is traditionally a very porcy map. Basically, the claim that ZK is getting porcier and more focused on arty wars does not line up with what I'm seeing. Even the meta on Zed involves a bunch of push and pull fighting with non-artillery in the middle. Point to replays etc.., as I don't see everything. I really want someone to gather some data on this.
|
3 |
16v16 has always been relatively porcy. As far as I can tell such games have become more army-focused in recent years, not less. I've watched fairly recent games on LLTA complex that are almost all army on the flatlands, and this is traditionally a very porcy map. Basically, the claim that ZK is getting porcier and more focused on arty wars does not line up with what I'm seeing. Even the meta on Zed involves a bunch of push and pull fighting with non-artillery in the middle. Point to replays etc.., as I don't see everything. I really want someone to gather some data on this.
|
| 4 |
\n
|
4 |
\n
|
| 5 |
In terms of 1v1, maybe people are getting better at the game. Tankier comms came about in part due to a perceived near-mandatory Raven switch into comm snipe meta. On the topic of skill, I'm not sure there actually was a dilemma between using the com to expand and sitting it at home to assist. In terms of comm pushing, I'm happy that a comm on a front does not automatically beat a front without an opposing comm. Beyond that I'm not so sure that keeping your comm at home has to be super viable. I'm also a little unsure as to the extent that large useful Lotus forests exist, and once the magnitude of the problem is known I expect to be able to address it with subtle tweaks. Arguing that they come from tanky comms seems to be trying to prove to much to me.
|
5 |
In terms of 1v1, maybe people are getting better at the game. Tankier comms came about in part due to a perceived near-mandatory Raven switch into comm snipe meta. On the topic of skill, I'm not sure there actually was a dilemma between using the com to expand and sitting it at home to assist. In terms of comm pushing, I'm happy that a comm on a front does not automatically beat a front without an opposing comm. Beyond that I'm not so sure that keeping your comm at home has to be super viable. I'm also a little unsure as to the extent that large useful Lotus forests exist, and once the magnitude of the problem is known I expect to be able to address it with subtle tweaks. Arguing that they come from tanky comms seems to be trying to prove to much to me.
|
| 6 |
\n
|
6 |
\n
|
| 7 |
Is artillery more the 1v1 meta than it was in earlier years? I think the clearest trend in 1v1 is the trend towards smaller maps, partially pushed by the community and partially because more factories are viable, which tends to require maps smaller than CCR. I think map size is pushing 1v1 trends more than comms. Gather some people for games on CCR or Hourglass and see if artillery makes an appearance.
|
7 |
Is artillery more the 1v1 meta than it was in earlier years? I think the clearest trend in 1v1 is the trend towards smaller maps, partially pushed by the community and partially because more factories are viable, which tends to require maps smaller than CCR. I think map size is pushing 1v1 trends more than comms. Gather some people for games on CCR or Hourglass and see if artillery makes an appearance.
|
| 8 |
\n
|
8 |
\n
|
| 9 |
(This is probably the least important point, but it is the most verifiable: terraform has steadily become more expensive over the years. It is not cheaper.)
|
9 |
(This is probably the least important point, but it is the most verifiable: terraform has steadily become more expensive over the years. It is not cheaper.)
|
| 10 |
\n
|
10 |
\n
|
| 11 |
[q]I haven't changed my mind about ANY of these opinions. It's been forever since I have voiced these opinions as well. I have also seen the vast majority of well considered balancing opinions get ignored. Remember Detriment? The biggest, very iconic, very likely too get built by a noob unit. It was so bad. It had to make some really bad impressions for new players for what the game has to offer. It took half a decade of complaining and an external developer to submit a patch.[/q]
|
11 |
[q]I haven't changed my mind about ANY of these opinions. It's been forever since I have voiced these opinions as well. I have also seen the vast majority of well considered balancing opinions get ignored. Remember Detriment? The biggest, very iconic, very likely too get built by a noob unit. It was so bad. It had to make some really bad impressions for new players for what the game has to offer. It took half a decade of complaining and an external developer to submit a patch.[/q]
|
| 12 |
You write this in an accusatory way, yet this is actually just a clear example of the relative usefulness of complaints and work. Complaints are feedback, but they don't translate into actual output. A decade of complaints doesn't generate any more output. It is only when someone picked up the task of translating the feedback into an implementation, doing the bulk of the work, which was then further discussed and refined, did anything actually happen. It doesn't matter whether this someone is me, which requires free time, or anyone else who is interested in the task.
|
12 |
You write this in an accusatory way, yet this is actually just a clear example of the relative usefulness of complaints and work. Complaints are feedback, but they don't translate into actual output. A decade of complaints doesn't generate any more output. It is only when someone picked up the task of translating the feedback into an implementation, doing the bulk of the work, which was then further discussed and refined, did anything actually happen. It doesn't matter whether this someone is me, which requires free time, or anyone else who is interested in the task.
|
| 13 |
\n
|
13 |
\n
|
| 14 |
Balance opinions are something like 10% of the work, maybe less. Even something as simple as tweaking a number would ideally be tested in multiplier, and has to be tested locally. The change needs to be considered in the context of everything else and followed up to see if things are better or worse off. A lot of the work is in reconciling all the conflicting opinions and trying to find the common thread between them. There tend to be opinions and arguments on both sides, which sets a limit on their usefulness. It is also often better to change subtle something behind a problem than to tackle the more overt symptoms head-on.
|
14 |
Balance opinions are something like 10% of the work, maybe less. Even something as simple as tweaking a number would ideally be tested in multiplier, and has to be tested locally. The change needs to be considered in the context of everything else and followed up to see if things are better or worse off. A lot of the work is in reconciling all the conflicting opinions and trying to find the common thread between them. There tend to be opinions and arguments on both sides, which sets a limit on their usefulness. It is also often better to change subtle something behind a problem than to tackle the more overt symptoms head-on.
|
| 15 |
\n
|
15 |
\n
|
| 16 |
Go further than opinions and arguments. Post replays so others can directly see what you're talking about. Collate data. Implement the results of your argument in a testable form. This at least makes the proposal specific.
|
16 |
Go further than opinions and arguments. Post replays so others can directly see what you're talking about. Collate data. Implement the results of your argument in a testable form. This at least makes the proposal specific.
|
| 17 |
\n
|
17 |
\n
|
|
|
18 |
So back to the OP:
|
|
|
19 |
* Find examples.
|
|
|
20 |
* Check the trends.
|
|
|
21 |
* Mod weaker commanders and run a bunch of test games.
|
|
|
22 |
\n
|
| 18 |
[q]I remember making a rant about Swifts making raiders useless at raiding in teamgames.
|
23 |
[q]I remember making a rant about Swifts making raiders useless at raiding in teamgames.
|
| 19 |
I remember making a thread about superweapons being badly balanced.[/q]
|
24 |
I remember making a thread about superweapons being badly balanced.[/q]
|
| 20 |
These two haven't had much said about them so I'll comment here. I don't remember everything everyone has said, but I broadly agree with the direction of these two points. Solving Swifts or Superweapons involves a lot more work than pointing out some problems. Nothing happens until anyone does anything.
|
25 |
These two haven't had much said about them so I'll comment here. I don't remember everything everyone has said, but I broadly agree with the direction of these two points. Solving Swifts or Superweapons involves a lot more work than pointing out some problems. Nothing happens until anyone does anything.
|
| 21 |
\n
|
26 |
\n
|
| 22 |
I would be surprised if superfluid didn't feel wrong for any long time players. The best data I have on it is a noticeable uptick in 1v1 games that has mostly been sustained since then (although there have been confounders). It was difficult to weigh the familiarity of vets against the grief new players were feeling when their units would lose mirror matches with 0% attrition.
|
27 |
I would be surprised if superfluid didn't feel wrong for any long time players. The best data I have on it is a noticeable uptick in 1v1 games that has mostly been sustained since then (although there have been confounders). It was difficult to weigh the familiarity of vets against the grief new players were feeling when their units would lose mirror matches with 0% attrition.
|
I think game was better when coms were weak